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Post by cassie on Jan 21, 2012 14:22:30 GMT -5
cassie.... what is scary is that I actually understood what you are saying ;D Thank you for explaining the derivative of middle 8. I also got a kick of actually understood what Adam was talking about falsetto.... again due to your constant teaching/educating us in this forum about the difference between falsetto and head voice/chest voice (which are all foreign to me until you started talking about it). When Randy Jackson used to throw that word "falsetto" about Adam after his performance (BOW/IICHY?) I really thought that was so impressive ;D. Meanwhile Adam was probably squirming and was holding his tongue to tell Randy those are not falsetto Thank you so much. P.S. Sometime if you can explain how you can tell a chest vs head voice and can you give a sample of Adam's performance where he used one over the other or does he mix it up? No hurry ... only when you get the time. Thanks again. You understood? Yay! I was successful. Thanks for the feedback. And, yes, I imagine Adam was thinking, "WTF, Randy???" several times during the competition. I am gonna work on the answer about head and chest voice. I thought I had explained it on the forum long ago, but searched the archives and did not find it. So, it is worth discussing again. While I put together a response, here's is something I found on the previous Adamtopia forum back in 2010. It cites Adam's use of chest vs head voice in WWL, Foxwoods. A great rendition! BTW, I know that Adam said that he doesn't use a blend/mix of chest and head much, and, of course he would know better than anyone. So, excuse me for disagreeing, but, he gets a LOT of head resonance and ring into his high belts. Yes, they are chest, but, that head is very much resonating, too. Adam's use of head voice vs. mixed head/chest. Sorry, folks, you will have to watch WLL Foxwoods again. At 1:08 he hits C5-Eb5 in pure ringing head voice. Then at about 1:54 he hits the same notes but belts with mixed head/chest. Another example is at about 2:57 when he starts in that head voice and then about 3:08 blends into powerful head/chest.
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Post by rihannsu on Jan 21, 2012 15:19:59 GMT -5
Thanks for the tip, rihannsu! I found soundbath very interesting, I already have the link saved for further delving in. It is the reason I am going to introduce Adam to a male friend who is into opera, only. Bringing Placido Domingo (my favourite of the three tenors, others being Pavarotti and Carreras), and of course Björling, into the discussion on Adam from a professional viewpoint might make a difference to him although he has been willing to listen to my ramblings anyway if they concern singing... Worth a try even if he won't become a fan of Adam's - I get to discuss the matter with someone and that is a gain for me. When we had our last fan get together at Mayumi's Angelina called in on Skype and we all got to talk to her. She told us she had been really busy giving vocal masterclasses and she was asked for each of these sessions to sing a few pieces at the end of the session. One of the pieces she chose to sing was Adam's "Soaked". She adjusted the key for her voice of course but what astonished her was that for the first time ever in her career when she sang the audience sang with her and she was totally unprepared for what that felt like. It absolutely blew her away. But what I found incredible is that this was an audience of vocal masterclass students in classical technique who knew Adam's song well enough to sing along. Isn't that FANTASTIC? Angelina has sung on stage with many great voices and she is absolutely blown away by Adam. If you can get your friend interested definitely play Soaked from Acoustic Live and also "Come to Me Bend to Me" from Brigadoon and "My Conviction" from hair.
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gabby
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Action with Vision is making a positive difference.? Joel Barker
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Post by gabby on Jan 21, 2012 18:02:23 GMT -5
cassie.... what is scary is that I actually understood what you are saying ;D You understood? Yay! I was successful. Thanks for the feedback. And, yes, I imagine Adam was thinking, "WTF, Randy???" several times during the competition. I am gonna work on the answer about head and chest voice. I thought I had explained it on the forum long ago, but searched the archives and did not find it. So, it is worth discussing again. While I put together a response, here's is something I found on the previous Adamtopia forum back in 2010. It cites Adam's use of chest vs head voice in WWL, Foxwoods. A great rendition! BTW, I know that Adam said that he doesn't use a blend/mix of chest and head much, and, of course he would know better than anyone. So, excuse me for disagreeing, but, he gets a LOT of head resonance and ring into his high belts. Yes, they are chest, but, that head is very much resonating, too. Adam's use of head voice vs. mixed head/chest. Sorry, folks, you will have to watch WLL Foxwoods again. At 1:08 he hits C5-Eb5 in pure ringing head voice. Then at about 1:54 he hits the same notes but belts with mixed head/chest. Another example is at about 2:57 when he starts in that head voice and then about 3:08 blends into powerful head/chest. Ha Ha! I listened and compare it to your notes above and wow! I truly can differentiate now where as before I thought the first run was falsetto :( . Seems like the head voice is closer to falsetto but smoother and fuller whereas the second run was no denying because of the power that it cannot be falsetto ;D just too much power. That is my novice #justunderstandingvoicepower explanation of what I hear :D. Now as another follow up. One of the DDD's bloggers changed his mind about Adam when he listened to the studio recording of Feeling Good. He said the best falsetto he's heard "Sleeeeep in peace when the day is done" at 1:34 www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OvqwXAsP6oI thought this was more of a mix falsetto/headvoice? Your thoughts when you have time. Thanks, cassie
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Post by cassie on Jan 21, 2012 20:59:42 GMT -5
Okay. Head voice and chest voice. How to tell which? Check out this video about finding your head voice.
In the beginning minute, he is demonstrating chest voice. Where the resonance comes from the chest cavity. When you are singing comfortable low notes, you are singing in chest voice. As he goes higher and higher, you can start to hear strain in his voice as he pushes it as far up as he can. (Bruno Mars, anyone???) He also demonstrates chest voice at around 1:50.
I like his analogy of a race car. But I would take it a step further. You are in first gear, and you push the pedal to the floor and go as fast as you can. The engine revs and strains, but, there reaches a point where it cannot do any more. Continue to drive pedal to the medal like that in first gear and you will burn out your engine. (Adele? Is that what happened to you?) Think of first gear as your chest voice.
However, if you shift into second or third gear, the engine stops rev-ing and you are able to push the pedal down again and build more speed. This is like shifting into your head voice. If you produce that high, clear wooooooooooo, you should be able to feel the vibration in your sinuses (your head). Alternately, if you do a deep sigh like settling into your comfy lounge chair after a long run..... aaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh. Feel the vibration in your chest? Chest voice.
Now check out this video, where the coach is trying to get the student to find his head voice. You can hear the strain and crackle in the student's voice as he tries to copy the clear, ringing sound of the coach's voice. It is interesting to watch the coach try different strategies to get the guy to find that "sweet spot" and shift into head voice. He is finally successful by having the student hold on to a guitar in order to feel the vibrations resonating in the wood and the body of the guitar as the coach demonstrates. Then, he is able to reproduce the same sort of vibration in the guitar with his head voice.
The first time you, as a vocal student, manage to stumble into your head voice and feel that vibration in your skull and the total lack of strain in your throat muscles it is an "Aha!" moment. Then, once you have had that sensation, you keep practicing until you are able to produce it consistently. (And, that can take a long time.)
Then, you have to learn how to produce that head voice on a variety of different high pitches and while singing a variety of different vowels. (Oooo is the easiest, or possibly eeeeee. Ahhhhh is difficult.)
The final stage of developing your head voice is to be able to transition from the lower chest voice to the higher head voice and have the tone sound consistent. Many (most) singers have a noticeable "break" when they shift. Just like you can hear the change in the sound of the engine in first gear to the sound in second gear, you can hear a change in the quality of the tone. Adam is a master at this regiter shifting all the way up and down the scale, so that you don't hear where he shifts gears.
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Post by cassie on Jan 21, 2012 21:06:02 GMT -5
You understood? Yay! I was successful. Thanks for the feedback. And, yes, I imagine Adam was thinking, "WTF, Randy???" several times during the competition. I am gonna work on the answer about head and chest voice. I thought I had explained it on the forum long ago, but searched the archives and did not find it. So, it is worth discussing again. While I put together a response, here's is something I found on the previous Adamtopia forum back in 2010. It cites Adam's use of chest vs head voice in WWL, Foxwoods. A great rendition! BTW, I know that Adam said that he doesn't use a blend/mix of chest and head much, and, of course he would know better than anyone. So, excuse me for disagreeing, but, he gets a LOT of head resonance and ring into his high belts. Yes, they are chest, but, that head is very much resonating, too. Adam's use of head voice vs. mixed head/chest. Sorry, folks, you will have to watch WLL Foxwoods again. At 1:08 he hits C5-Eb5 in pure ringing head voice. Then at about 1:54 he hits the same notes but belts with mixed head/chest. Another example is at about 2:57 when he starts in that head voice and then about 3:08 blends into powerful head/chest. Ha Ha! I listened and compare it to your notes above and wow! I truly can differentiate now where as before I thought the first run was falsetto :( . Seems like the head voice is closer to falsetto but smoother and fuller whereas the second run was no denying because of the power that it cannot be falsetto ;D just too much power. That is my novice #justunderstandingvoicepower explanation of what I hear :D. Now as another follow up. One of the DDD's bloggers changed his mind about Adam when he listened to the studio recording of Feeling Good. He said the best falsetto he's heard "Sleeeeep in peace when the day is done" at 1:34 www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OvqwXAsP6oI thought this was more of a mix falsetto/headvoice? Your thoughts when you have time. Thanks, cassie Oh, IMO, that is a ringing, clear head voice. A falsetto would be much weaker, and with less ring. Plus a more breathy sound. But, many experts argue about those terms, so, in the end I go with Adam's "but, does it sound good??" The guys at DDD are not all professional, trained singers with lots of experience. In fact, very few of them are. They are aficionados of the rock singer voice, and have great depth of knowledge from having listened to many different singers for thousands of hours. It is like watching basketball for hours on end, season after season. You may be able to identify moves, plays, strategies, etc. But, if you haven't played the game, you still don't know how to make a lay up. Or what the body mechanics are. j/s
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Post by rihannsu on Jan 21, 2012 21:20:10 GMT -5
Cassie do you follow this BS on DDD currently about Adam singing the "wrong" notes in TSMGO at the EMA's? Greg is going on about this wrong note stuff and he posted some wiki page about key signatures to support his arguement but all I get from that is that key and key signature is about notating music not about right or wrong notes. Can you explain what the heck he is talking about or his whole thing BS as I suspect?
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Post by cassie on Jan 21, 2012 22:05:00 GMT -5
Cassie do you follow this BS on DDD currently about Adam singing the "wrong" notes in TSMGO at the EMA's? Greg is going on about this wrong note stuff and he posted some wiki page about key signatures to support his arguement but all I get from that is that key and key signature is about notating music not about right or wrong notes. Can you explain what the heck he is talking about or his whole thing BS as I suspect? Yeah, he is still going on about that. He mentioned it in his 18 minute YT review of the EMA performance. IMO, it is BS. He didn't like the EMA performance for some reason... don't know if it was because no one should sing a Freddie song (he is a Freddie fan, big time), or because he doesn't like Adam, or because it has gotten such resounding praise with some folks even daring to say he sounded better than Freddie. He is definitely not seeing the same performance I am seeing. But, as for the Eb he is talking about... there were a couple of places where Adam riffs from a D5 up to another note. As I hear it, he is going for the E5, but is slightly flat on the note. It is certainly not a definite, pure, square Eb. Greg hears it as an Eb that is a little sharp. The pitch is actually somewhere between those two notes, to be honest. But, the E5 makes more musical sense in the key, and that is how I hear it. As to whether an Eb fits in the key signature.... it is not part of the D minor scale. So what? Composers are not under some mandate to choose notes only within one key signature. They add incidental flats and sharps all the time. For example, much of OOL is in a minor pentatonic scale. However, at times, two notes are added to the melody that shift it to a regular minor scale. Are those notes "wrong"? No. A composer can use whateverthefuck note he wants in a song. That is just blowin' smoke, IMO. Greg seems determined to objectively PROVE that Adam's performance was lousy. He is picking the criteria to support that opinion. I could pick other criteria which would argue that it was an incredible performance. The one I would choose first is that Roger and Brian thought it was great! They thought he was so good that they are in talks about future gigs. They think he is a one in ten million singer. So, who cares if Adam was going for an Eb or an E, and slightly missed whichever pitch. ETA: Want proof that one doesn't have to stick with the traditional notes for a scale in the song key? Try Ring of Fire. The Johnny Cash original is in a major key. In Adam's version, he lowers the second and the seventh note of the major scale to make it sound/feel middle eastern and exotic. Those notes are NOT part of the major scale in that key. Johnny certainly does not sing those notes. Country purists might say the notes are "wrong" in that song, but, I think they are genius. I love what he did with the melody to give it a feel 180 degrees from country.
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Post by rihannsu on Jan 21, 2012 22:35:51 GMT -5
Thank you. I thought he was full of shit but although I pick up things here and there I don't actually KNOW enough to be sure. I read an analysis of Ring of Fire that said he sang it in the Phrygian(?) scale and that was a middle eastern style vocal that Western singers usually aren't able to execute well. Wish I could remember where I saw that. It was done to show that while he might have used Dilana's musical arrangement the vocal arrangement was absolutely NOTHING like her vocal.
ETA: I remember reading somewhere that classical music notation severely limited musical creativity as it lead to rigidity in musical development. When you limit "music" to only what can be represented by notation structures you limit creativity. Also many primitive music styles do not lend themselves to strict notation. Even things like the blues and jazz are not well served by notation as the limits of notation structures do not truly allow for proper representation of the music.
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Post by cassie on Jan 21, 2012 23:20:57 GMT -5
Thank you. I thought he was full of shit but although I pick up things here and there I don't actually KNOW enough to be sure. I read an analysis of Ring of Fire that said he sang it in the Phrygian(?) scale and that was a middle eastern style vocal that Western singers usually aren't able to execute well. Wish I could remember where I saw that. It was done to show that while he might have used Dilana's musical arrangement the vocal arrangement was absolutely NOTHING like her vocal. That' a new one to me. Or, if I knew it in my music theory class, it has since flown out of my brain. And I will agree that it is in the Phrygian scale or mode as Adam sings it (except he doesn't lower the sixth tone). However, it is written in a regular major scale, so Adam altered the "right" notes. Or the "right" scale. Whatever, it worked wonderfully. So, no rules about what notes you can use.
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Post by rihannsu on Jan 21, 2012 23:30:25 GMT -5
Your little lesson about song structure and the definition of middle eight or bridge reminded me of this paper I came across when I was hanging out on the U2 boards. Thought you might find it interesting. www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.11.17.3/mto.11.17.3.endrinal.htmlETA: I was kind of proud of myself for sort of being able to understand it. LOL
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