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Post by bridgeymah on Nov 14, 2012 1:39:58 GMT -5
Thanks Cassie - wasn't sure what range it covered and agree there is a huge difference between being able to sing and being a trained vocalist. Bit like difference between splashing up and down the pool and Ian Thorpe or Michael Phelps for the US peeps.
On the flip some super trained vocalists really struggle to loosen up enough to sing pop music convincingly something you see on shows like The Voice. That's one of the bits that I think makes Adam somewhat unique today is that he has been able to adapt his training to his chosen environment and suspect if he was to go back to more classical style of music he would adapt right back.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2012 9:05:46 GMT -5
Not jumping at you but Bowie wasn't a trained singer and that scale sounds super when he does it live :D
3:03
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Post by cassie on Nov 14, 2012 9:21:48 GMT -5
Not jumping at you but Bowie wasn't a trained singer and that scale sounds super when he does it live :D 3:03 Yes he does. And he does the whole thing an octave lower than Adam. (The scale starts higher, but Bowie is not singing it.) Not saying that ONLY trained singers can sing that passage. I am saying that most trained singers can sing it well, and a majority of untrained singers cannot. I am also an old fuddy-duddy and think that singers in previous generations who didn't have the advantage of all the electronics to enhance their vocals in the studio tended to have better voices than a majority of pop singers today. However, there are always exceptions in either direction (Bob Dylan, anyone?). And the "Disney kids" may be manufactured, but they are generally picked for having talent in the beginning and groomed/trained from there, so some are quite good. But, I am very grateful Disney didn't get their hands on Adam when he was 10 years old! Makes me shudder to think of it. |
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Post by cassie on Nov 14, 2012 9:28:47 GMT -5
Thanks Cassie - wasn't sure what range it covered and agree there is a huge difference between being able to sing and being a trained vocalist. Bit like difference between splashing up and down the pool and Ian Thorpe or Michael Phelps for the US peeps. On the flip some super trained vocalists really struggle to loosen up enough to sing pop music convincingly something you see on shows like The Voice. That's one of the bits that I think makes Adam somewhat unique today is that he has been able to adapt his training to his chosen environment and suspect if he was to go back to more classical style of music he would adapt right back. That is an excellent point. Adam's ability to switch styles/genres and sing them convincingly is extraordinary. When you hear him sing rock or pop you don't immediately think, "Oh, that's a classical singer trying to be a rocker." Other trained singers may listen and realize they are hearing some strong technique behind the vocals, but, to the general public there is nothing that stands out and screams "opera". Some people who have heard Adam sing CTMBTM have said that he has since "ruined" his voice, and can no longer sing legitimately like he used to. I think that is BS. Both WWTLF and TSMGO have loads of classical or opera aria aspects. I agree with you that if/when Adam wants to switch to the classical style/repertoire, he can do so. Not saying it would not take some practice and coaching, but the capability and voice are there. |
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Kamar
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Post by Kamar on Nov 14, 2012 13:15:11 GMT -5
Hello, Holst! Well, I genuinely had no idea about the movable do system. lol It's fun to learn new things. I will definitely try to learn more about it. In Spain, we use do, re, mi, sol, la, and si (not ti) to name fixed notes. That's what my solfege teachers taught me, and that's what I've always used. When I did music dictations I had to recognize the correct notes and write them exactly as they were in the original score. My main instrument is piano, and I've always used piano scores, so I didn't get to learn about the letters C, D, E, F, G, A and B until I started learning guitar. And I had to match those letters to my own system of solfege syllables so that it would make sense to me. I didn't realize it wouldn't make sense to people using other systems. (I hope I'm explaining myself properly. It's hard to use technical language in another language, I don't know if I'm using the proper words half the time... lol) Cassie, I think it was Kamar who asked for the solfege notes, that's why I wrote the syllables and their corresponding letters. I guess she uses the fixed do system too? Interesting stuff! Music is universal, but its description and notation certainly is not. I started with piano, also, but learned the alphabet names for the keys and the notes on a score. That was engraved on my brain, for good and for bad. I can read the treble and bass clefs easily, but when I tried playing viola with a different clef I would get so confused. Perhaps if I had read the notes as intervals as in solfege instead of absolute notes, it would have been easier to transition. If you play a C on the piano and then ask me to sing any other note based on that one (i.e. sing the G below, or the Bb above) I can do that without thinking. But if you say "sing the major third, or sing "la", I have to do a mental translation into the letters I know. "Let's see, major third. C, D, E, there you go!" "La, you say? Okay. [hums softly to myself the scale from The Sound of Music... do, re, mi, fa, so la.... oh! You wanted me to sing an A. Why didn't you say so?] The ability to "hear", sing or identify any pitch after getting a base pitch is called "relative pitch." What is rarer is "perfect pitch"; the ability to identify any pitch without a reference point, or to sing/hum a pitch without a reference point. My ear falls somewhere in between. Relative pitch is a piece of cake. Identifying or singing a pitch with no references I can come close; usually within a quarter or half step if not spot on. Again, this is a blessing and a curse. I'm a pretty fierce sight reader without having to rely on instrumental accompaniment. But, I cannot NOT hear things that are off pitch. and, I cannot read a melody line written in the key of C, for example, but sing it in the key of A (which my church choir director used to do regularly, using his electronic keyboard to alter the key of the song). Fascinating how we all hear and process music differently, even when we think we are talking about the same experience. Yes Albiku , and yes , cassie !!! I play piano , and I know the traditional solfege (do re mi fa sol la si do) and I read traditional sheet music . (or at least try to , not a pro , I play music better by ear)  so , when I came here in this thread , because I love music , and playing piano , and try to play adam's songs on piano , I thought I would know what you guys are talking about , and I read the first pages and you guys were all like "he's singing Gb , and that note is B flat ..." and so on and I was like "WTF ??" LOL !!! That was so funny !! hahahaha !!!! ETA : very important , the "Gb" I was referring to above does *not* stand for "Glambulge" . I know Glamberts have dirrty minds .  |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 14, 2012 13:35:00 GMT -5
Not saying that ONLY trained singers can sing that passage. I am saying that most trained singers can sing it well, and a majority of untrained singers cannot. I am also an old fuddy-duddy and think that singers in previous generations who didn't have the advantage of all the electronics to enhance their vocals in the studio tended to have better voices than a majority of pop singers today. However, there are always exceptions in either direction (Bob Dylan, anyone?). And the "Disney kids" may be manufactured, but they are generally picked for having talent in the beginning and groomed/trained from there, so some are quite good. But, I am very grateful Disney didn't get their hands on Adam when he was 10 years old! Makes me shudder to think of it. Didn't do Demi no harm ;D |
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ayleim
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Post by ayleim on Nov 15, 2012 0:29:12 GMT -5
First time posting here - ever - and I'm not even sure this is the right place to ask this, but it's been niggling at the back of my mind for ages...
I haven't had the chance to see Adam live, but just HOW different is what I hear on the videos from being there live? Pitch-wise, not sound quality, that is. Because I'm one of those who generally don't really like how the female back-up singers sound; as far as I can tell, I've always preferred it when it's only been male back-up singers. I asked this elsewhere, but no one answered - is it true that a SLIGHTLY dissonant chord sounds a lot more jarring when the notes are close together instead of far apart, as in a major 2nd vs a major 9th? And could that be why with female backup singers (assuming they're usually singing the harmonies an octave higher than their male counterparts would be) kinda rub me the wrong way? (Well, my ears, since I have nothing against them besides how I hear them.)
If the videos distort the pitches I'm hearing, then that would account for a lot my winces right there. And also what I'm hearing as being... "off".... in Adam's perfomance of Underneath. Beautiful as it was, I keep feeling that there is one note that is consistently flat...
E.g. in the chorus:
A red river of screams, underneath
Tears in my eyes, underneath
Stars in my black and blue skies
Everytime he sings "underneath" there, especially on "-neath", it sounds flat to me. Do I need my ears checked? It is an artifact of the video recording?
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Post by cassie on Nov 15, 2012 1:38:56 GMT -5
First time posting here - ever - and I'm not even sure this is the right place to ask this, but it's been niggling at the back of my mind for ages... I haven't had the chance to see Adam live, but just HOW different is what I hear on the videos from being there live? Pitch-wise, not sound quality, that is. Because I'm one of those who generally don't really like how the female back-up singers sound; as far as I can tell, I've always preferred it when it's only been male back-up singers. I asked this elsewhere, but no one answered - is it true that a SLIGHTLY dissonant chord sounds a lot more jarring when the notes are close together instead of far apart, as in a major 2nd vs a major 9th? And could that be why with female backup singers (assuming they're usually singing the harmonies an octave higher than their male counterparts would be) kinda rub me the wrong way? (Well, my ears, since I have nothing against them besides how I hear them.) If the videos distort the pitches I'm hearing, then that would account for a lot my winces right there. And also what I'm hearing as being... "off".... in Adam's perfomance of Underneath. Beautiful as it was, I keep feeling that there is one note that is consistently flat... E.g. in the chorus: A red river of screams, underneath Tears in my eyes, underneath Stars in my black and blue skies Everytime he sings "underneath" there, especially on "-neath", it sounds flat to me. Do I need my ears checked? It is an artifact of the video recording? This the place for your comments and questions. Welcome. You ask a great question for which I don't have a great answer. From my understanding of the physics of sound, pitch should not be altered from a live performance to a recorded one. Pitch is determined by the number of cycles per second in the note. How would a recording change that? However, I have heard from some very good musicians who attended Adam concerts that the pitches sounded just fine live, but, when they played the videos, they sounded off. How could that be? I think it may have to do with the harmonics created on top of the base pitch. When you sing or play a note the pitch is the "fundamental frequency." For example, the A above middle C vibrates at 440 cycles per second. However, within the note we hear, there are also other pitches, softer and more subtle so we don't perceive them as separate notes. These vibrate at multiples of the fundamental frequency. So the secondary frequency for that A would vibrate at 880 cycles (the A one octave above the fundamental note). A third harmonic would be at the E an octave and a fifth above the fundamental. And so on. Each subsequent harmonic is softer than the one before. Voices and instruments sound different from each other because each creates a different set of harmonics with different intensities. Still with me? Adam's voice/body, for example, produces tons of rich harmonics which make the sound so lush, full, and ringing. His extensive vocal training has taught him how to maximize the production of these harmonics within his body. Think of it like singing in the shower. Your voice sounds great, right? That's because you are in a confined space and the notes are bouncing off all these hard surfaces, creating many harmonic frequencies. If you sing outdoors, however, with no nearby surfaces to vibrate with your voice, and it sounds weak and wimpy. Trained singers sound like they are in the shower all the time, because the notes are vibrating and producing these harmonics within their bodies. Now, to recordings of the voice. The recording only picks up those frequencies the equipment is designed to pick up. The microphone "hears" fewer harmonics than the human ear. The "cheaper" the mic, the fewer frequencies it picks up. You know how voices sound tinny over the phone? It is because the phone only picks up and reproduces a narrow range of frequencies, so many of the harmonics are missing. This happens with video/audio recordings from your iPhone or your flip camera as well. Many of the high frequencies are never recorded. I suspect that live, those high harmonics added to the fundamental frequency make it sound slightly higher in pitch. When they are removed during recording, the pitch sounds a bit flat. (An additional challenge for a singer is that they hear/feel the harmonics inside their body with a different intensity from what their voice sounds like from three feet away. That is why good monitors are so vital to singers like Adam, so he can hear how he sounds to others.) As to why the guy backing singers may sound better than the girls? My guess is that they are singing lower notes, with lower fundamental frequencies. Therefore, the second, third, fourth frequencies are also going to be lower. So, you have more audible harmonics within the range that the iPhone or other camera can record. They sound richer, less screechy. At least, these are my best guesses to why pitch may sound different live and in recordings. Anyone else have ideas? And, yes, I hear what you hear on those notes of Underneath. I guess the only solution is to go hear Adam perform live, right? |
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Post by Albiku on Nov 15, 2012 4:12:31 GMT -5
Anyone else have ideas? And, yes, I hear what you hear on those notes of Underneath. I guess the only solution is to go hear Adam perform live, right? I will ask my boyfriend about your theory, Cassie. He's both a musician and an Engineer in Telecommunications, so maybe he'll know if recording with our phones/cameras can make the VJJ's (or even Adam) sound flat. I've also heard that when you go see Adam live you get surprised at the sound of his voice, because somehow it doesn't translate well into any recording device (I think Angelina said that?). About those notes in Underneath, I hear it too. Let's see how it turns out this Friday. It's a very difficult song to sing, at least to me, and it was the first time he sang it live. Either he intended for those notes to sound like that, or he'll correct those little imperfections with time, I guess. Or maybe it's those pesky electronic devices messing with the pitch again. I NEED to see Adam live, seriously. By the way, I have a question. Neither my boyfriend nor I know anything about singing, so it's funny that we manage to start these little debates between us. We've been talking about the "look into my eyes, baby eyes" part in Music Again. Is it falsetto, or head voice, or what? :dunno: Thank you in advance!  |
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ayleim
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Post by ayleim on Nov 15, 2012 10:35:20 GMT -5
Thanks Cassie, albiku! I'm strangely relieved that I'm not the only one hearing it. I'm not very musical, but I thought I at least had a reasonable sense of relative pitch. You're very good at explaining the technicalities, Cassie; it explains a lot which I was vaguely aware of, but never thought carefully about. So that's why a high note on a violin tends to sound "higher" (read : squeakier!) than a piano note. Different harmonics hmmm? (scratches head) Then again, when you play the same note on different instruments, you can still tell they're the same, squeaky or not. Interesting point about what recording devices can record, it didn't occur to me. Though, following from the train of thought above, it does seem a bit weird how losing some of the harmonics from a live performance might make a recording sound flat; thinner and less resonant, of course, but a perceived change in pitch? Hmmm. Then again, I know NOTHING of voice production or recording! I'm curious what your boyfriend says, albiku.... is he also a fan? Oh yes, I definitely hope to hear Underneath again in a couple of days. And I REALLY want to see him live some time; I know, I know, he's performing in Bali over the new year, and that's just a 2-hour flight away from here... But I can't leave my 4-year-old for a few days, and I don't think she's ready for one of his concerts... yet! ;D Whether or not the "flatness" I seem to hear in the recordings is due to technical or, um, human deficiencies, I'm still kinda wondering about my other question : is it true that a dissonant chord sounds a lot more jarring when the notes are close together instead of far apart, e.g in a major/minor 2nd interval vs a 9th? Could that be affecting my perception of the backup singers too? |
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