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Post by cassie on Nov 15, 2012 12:38:28 GMT -5
Thanks Cassie, albiku! I'm strangely relieved that I'm not the only one hearing it. I'm not very musical, but I thought I at least had a reasonable sense of relative pitch. Your ears are just fine. I have learned on the main thread not to comment on pitch problems. There are members who think either A) I am being negative and slamming Adam, or B) I am imagining it because they don't hear anything wrong with the pitch..... or both. But here on the masterclass thread, we enjoy discussing all aspects of Adam's performance. Part of the fun of a live performance is that it is not perfect. An artist walks a tightrope and can lose his balance at any time, making the performance exciting and unpredictable. And a little spinet piano sounds more tinny and dull than a concert grand piano because the grand is so much larger with more ability to resonate, especially the lower frequencies. The fundamental frequency is the same, but the harmonics are quite different. Logic tells me that limiting the harmonics should not change my perception of the fundamental pitch. I am just looking for some explanation for the difference people hear live and on a recording. Certainly, the one time I heard Adam live in concert his voice was even brighter and more ringing than any video. Can't wait to experience that again. You never know! I think we have had some members bring wee ones to a concert. Just have to get baby ear protectors. I agree that notes that are close together but not related in frequency sound more jarring than notes further apart. I think it is because the sound waves of their fundamental frequency are so close in size that they conflict and almost bounce into each other, as it were. It is also why two vocalists singing the same note (allegedly) but with one of them a tad flat or sharp sound so painful --- much more so than if you are listening to just one singer who is slightly off pitch. When I played violin we used to tune our strings using that principle. The standard pitch (for instance A 440) is played by another instrument or tuning fork. Then the A string is played on your violin. If they are not the exact same pitch, you will hear a wobble or unnerving oscillation. The closer you get to the A 440, the slower the wobble. When it disappears completely, you've got it! |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2012 13:52:14 GMT -5
[/IMG] Thank you in advance!  [/quote] Depends who you ask, but I think Adam himself called it falsetto and I would agree  BTW you've probably heard this a million times but the live recordings, even though they're incredible really don't do justice to how Adam sounds live. I didn't believe that until I saw Queenbert  My mind was well and truly blown and yours will be too :D |
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Albiku
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Post by Albiku on Nov 15, 2012 19:12:16 GMT -5
Depends who you ask, but I think Adam himself called it falsetto and I would agree BTW you've probably heard this a million times but the live recordings, even though they're incredible really don't do justice to how Adam sounds live. I didn't believe that until I saw Queenbert My mind was well and truly blown and yours will be too :D Thanks for answering! I'm learning so much.  I really want to see Adam live. I can't wait! And you went to see Queenbert? Wow, you're so lucky! [img src=" ![]() i770.photobucket.com/albums/xx348/Quu3/Adam%20Smilys/Other%20Smileys/clap.gif"][/IMG] [img src=" ![]() i770.photobucket.com/albums/xx348/Quu3/Adam%20Smilys/Other%20Smileys/clap.gif"][/IMG] [img src=" ![]() i770.photobucket.com/albums/xx348/Quu3/Adam%20Smilys/Other%20Smileys/clap.gif"][/IMG] I was blown away by the Queenbert videos, I can't imagine how much better it must have sounded live. I'm jealous!  Cassie and Ayleim, I asked my boyfriend what he thought about the recording devices theory. He told me that Cassie's explanation about the loss of harmonics is pretty much correct (he also talked about piezoresistive microphones and other things I didn't really understand, lol), but that he doesn't think that a recording device can make you hear a change in pitch. So to sum it up the loss of harmonics is the reason why Adam sounds so different live than in any recording, but the recording devices aren't at fault for the occasional flat notes in Underneath or elsewhere. I do think the VJJ's must sound good live, though. I generally like them, like I said on the daily thread the other night. I think it's good for Adam to have real backup singers, and I like it that they are girls. I've seen Brian sing with them, so they kinda have a male backup singer too. PS: Ayleim, my boyfriend isn't exactly an Adam fan, although he admires him a lot as a vocalist. I think he might become a casual fan, though. The other day I caught him singing Sure Fire Winners, and he actually recorded his own cover of WWFM last week. :Clap: |
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Post by butterknife on Nov 15, 2012 20:13:20 GMT -5
Hi, ya... I've got a question, actually it's been bugging me for a while. Why do professional singers (even a vocal master like Adam) some times get pitch problems singing live? Big Thanks! Great question. Several answers. First of all, it is not because they don't have a good enough ear to sing on pitch. Well, let me modify that. Professional, trained singers who reach some acclaim because of their talent and not because they are the pop star for a day, have the ability to hear when something is off pitch. One reason for pitch problems is a lack of vocal technique and breath support. But, a pro should be beyond that, generally. However, singing a note on pitch requires very subtle, exact adjustments of muscles in the head, mouth, neck, and torso. It is possible to just miss the mark slightly with those adjustments. When you play the piano, if you hit the right key, the note is automatically on pitch. When you play guitar, if you put your finger in between two frets (bars that contact the strings and determine the note) and if your instrument is in tune, the note is automatically on pitch. With singing, there are no pre-established keys or frets or markers to engage to sing the pitch perfectly. Your body has to know how to make the tiny adjustments of muscles to hit precisely the right pitch. So, if you hear an occasional flat or sharp note with everything else being on, it is probably just a tiny bit too much air, or the vocal cords tightened or loosened just a smidge too much. If the singer is particularly stressed or nervous, or even just distracted, their accuracy can be affected. A second, less well known reason, is that one's voice sounds different from inside the body and outside. When you change the shape of your mouth, for example, you may change how the pitch sounds to you. You also hear/feel resonance differently from the inside out. So, inside your body, as you sing, the pitch may sound accurate. But, if you later listen to a recording of the singing, it may sound "off." It has something to do with sound wave lengths, harmonics, resonance, etc. But, the most common reason by far is that the singer cannot hear: either cannot hear the backing instruments they rely on for pitch, or cannot hear their own voice over the loud instrumentation. If you cannot clearly hear the cuing instruments, it is like shooting at a target you cannot see and hoping to hit the bullseye from memory. If you cannot hear your own voice, it is like being unable to see where your shot hits the target. When Adam has been notably off key, it is almost always because he cannot hear his voice, either in the ear monitors or the stage monitors. This is extremely disturbing for a singer, because it is totally out of their control. There is nothing they can do to "fix" the problem. It is in the hands of the sound technicians or in the quality of the sound equipment. I'm sure you have seen Adam frequently fidgeting with his monitors; taking one or both out, putting them back in, putting them half-way in. When he takes one or both out, it is because he cannot hear his voice in them, and is hoping to hear it better from the stage monitors. (You may also see him do this if he wants to hear the audience. One monitor in for the sound onstage, one out to hear the sound in the audience.) You also will see him motion to the sound tech to change the settings on the stage monitors. if he isn't getting the sound he needs to monitor his own voice. But, if the equipment is faulty or the tech is not capable, Adam is screwed. Since his voice is his trademark and his livelihood, it is no wonder he gets pissed when this happens. The sound tech has to be the worst job in the Adam world. He is meticulous about getting the sound right. Hope that answers your question? Yes. Cassie. Thanks a lot. That answered my question perfectly. I've learned a lot. Much more complicated than I originally thought. I understand it is impossible to be 100% perfect on pitches singing live. But I was thinking since they are professional (esp. outstanding vocalist like Adam) they should have the keys they are going to sing for every song in their head already. The instruments are tuned as well. So they should just go on the stage and nail it. Thank you again for the perfect answer. :Clap: :Clap: |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 15, 2012 20:30:01 GMT -5
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Albiku
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Post by Albiku on Nov 15, 2012 20:37:59 GMT -5
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Post by butterknife on Nov 15, 2012 21:15:47 GMT -5
[/IMG] Thank you in advance! [/quote] YEAH YEAH.. I've got the same question.. I remember reading one vocalist's blog saying he was singing FALSETTO in that part. But as more and more I read Cassie's explanation about head voice I got confused about that one. I actually more lean to the head voice cuz it has sounds so clear & powerful. Thanks in advance for any answers :D |
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Post by butterknife on Nov 15, 2012 21:38:31 GMT -5
[/IMG] Thank you in advance! [/quote] OH.. NICE.. ANSWERED ALREADY. THANKS A LOT!! YEAH YEAH.. I've got the same question.. I remember reading one vocalist's blog saying he was singing FALSETTO in that part. But as more and more I read Cassie's explanation about head voice I got confused about that one. I actually more lean to the head voice cuz it has sounds so clear & powerful. Thanks in advance for any answers :D[/quote] |
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Post by ayleim on Nov 16, 2012 10:34:06 GMT -5
Thanks for all the answers Cassie, albiku! It was nice to get that off my mind. Not that I'd expect live performances to always have the same sort of pitch-perfect notes that come with studio recordings, but I just like figuring out things that bug me! I have been slowly sifting through the earlier pages here and it is fascinating reading... I'll return to lurker-ville now and await videos of his performance in Johannesburg. ;D
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Post by cassie on Nov 16, 2012 11:11:52 GMT -5
From craazyforadam, posted in daily thread 11.15.12
When I analyze Adam's vocals, I never do it with a frame of mind of critiquing a performance or trying to find flaws. First of all they are very rare to begin with and I cannot see how doing that would be fun at all. But rather do I know that his vocal ability is so beyond of any question, that when it is discussed this is not about right or wrong, it is about personality and about interpretation and on that level it is sometimes interesting to look a bit deeper. Let me give you and example and allow those that are keen on skipping to do just that right now.
Adam is a risk taker. If he has a choice between something safe, but plain or something a bit more risky, but entertaining and interesting he will always go for it. He'll take a chance, not be afraid if it does not work out.
We fans know that and enjoy the variety and interest that this brings and over the years we have also learned that this crazy cat based on his natural ability and on top of it years of training has learned to land on his feet most of the time anyhow. Only every once in a while will he reach too far and find he needs to practice and develop the skill needed for the newest difficult jump. And if he encounters such a situation, that is exactly what Adam does.
An ice-skater practicing the quadruple jump will fall again and again during practice, and then will have to eventually risk it during performance time and just not worry about the potential of a fall. This skater will also listen to his body, find out whether things are 'tuned' just right that day to allow him to have a chance or whether it is better to just do a simple jump instead.
You can sometimes see Adam do the same thing. In WWTLF on day 3
he faces such a situation. That jump up to a high D at the end (3:30) is the challenge. That's the quadruple jump. You can see that Adam tests his own vocals at (2:58-3:00) and probably also checks how much his audio feedback is working for that high note, because the interesting thing is that at 3:00 he clearly makes the decision that he will go for it next time around (thirty seconds later). Watch his body language and also compare it to the performances on the previous days, when he decides against the experiment. The interesting part is that on the third day, Adam makes that decision even though his test at 2:58 is actually not all that successful; he has to correct there, but clearly his vocal chords tell him that in this night he does have it in him and that he can hear himself well enough that he can correct should he not land it. And of course we all know that he did land the jump just fine.
For me the guts that it takes to go for it, when the test is actually not indicating it just adds to that personality dimension, which I would not be able to experience or understand about Adam without listening with care and by following along with him.
I am not skilled enough musically to always hear such things. Sometimes I need to pull up a keyboard and try something out, because I am not sure what I am hearing. Or I need to go to the music thread and ask. That scale in fame was such a situation where I had to work it out. It had grasped my attention immediately and I could tell it was a two octave descent just from listening. But I could have sworn that it was some more unusual scale Adam was doing there - no it wasn't. The piano does not lie. My brain clearly lied to me. Just a regular major scale, but MY - does it sound mighty fine. Maybe it is just the harmonics created by the other instruments, I don't know, I just know, it sounds crazy good to listen to.
The interest comes from the performance, from the dancing down those steps, the harmonies and rhythms around him, the fact that pop songs normally don't contain scales and for good reason, the fact that they certainly don't contain scales that span two octaves, but that is why it is special. Adam can master all that and hold my interest endlessly. And in this case he teaches me that he just honors the master. Does exactly what Bowie did, because it is THAT good. No need to up it, just a need to do it justice. And that is what I love about him. His response varies depending on need and that makes it feel so good.
Sometimes I just want to sit there and press F5 and forget the world around me, and sometimes I feel like opening another window with a piano and start figuring things out. Want to know what crazy thing he just did. It's all about the discovery, discovering Adam and discovering music and meaning along the way. Adam can be such a wonderful teacher in so many ways. There is no right and wrong in how we learn from him. It's all good.
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Whyyyyyyy