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Post by HoppersSkippersMiners on Jun 7, 2011 0:28:31 GMT -5
Aw, hoppers, I'm sorry -- what an awful moment for you! Esepcially, as you say, to have your (understandable) feelings of rage against that kind of "you're not worthy-ness" be wakened by a 9-year-old. Good grief -- children have to be carefully taught to have prejudices like that, don't they, as the song from South Pacific goes? We're all so hell-bent to be part of the In group, whether that's a clique in high school or the cool crowd at work or the "saved" versus the "heathen" , we all look for an Us to be part of that makes us feel bigger than our small selves. And that would be okay, if it weren't so darned humanly easy to slip from "We're great" to "We're better than you." Way too much evil has been done in the world as a result. Thanks for telling your story -- I was puzzled by the vehement response from some folks here to that tweet because it didn't strike me that way at all -- I just hear his, "Yippee!" because not only did he get the rocker mentor he really wanted, but they had their faith in common which is the sort of thing that would make anyone feel like they had an even better shot at bonding. Now I get it. Love all the voices here. If we could all share, and all listen, the way we do here, something really good could happen in the world. [wry grin] Unless you're really familiar with the ATOP posters, it would be hard to discern that most of the people with the strongest reaction to the Christian tweets today were, in general, not Christian. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I know I'm really sensitized to the "Christian" response against Adam. On AI8 there was such a "devout" contingent around him. There was the rigid beliefs of Gokey, who Adam flat out stated that they needed to 'agree to disagree'. There was Sarver, who initially stated that gays would get shot in his hometown of Jasper TX...but who then softened his stance during the tour as he got to know Adam as a person (and wound up being a staunch supporter during the AMAs). There was Lil and her brand of Southern Baptist.....and then there was Kris, the worship leader. Don't get me wrong, I like Kris. I liked him on AI, and I still wish him well. But you will never convince me that Kris won American Idol due to his musical ability versus because he was a straight, practicing Christian. There were people on Planet Fierce and elsewhere who literally heard IN CHURCH that they should vote for Kris because he was a "good Christian". And I'm sure Kris *is* a good Christian. More than many other "good Christians" I've met, Kris truly did treat others with considerateness and love, up to and including his roommate and friend Adam Lambert. And I will always respect Kris for that honest respect and regard for Adam. Because Kris apparently got some heat for that. And he didn't care. Now things got muddied after the AMAs, their respective album launches, and sales comparisons. But, when it counted. When Idol was playing its stupid "white versus black" game. Kris was a staunch Adam supporter. However, it doesn't change the fact that people will vote (in AI and in RL politics) based on the fact that people are "good Christians" and not on ability or credentials. And that scares me........... And that's why a "Yay Christian!" tweet from the guileless Durbin makes me so freakin' depressed. He *really* wants Daughtry over Adam. And the music isn't the reason why. |
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Post by rihannsu on Jun 7, 2011 0:32:15 GMT -5
I get that James has a disability and I understand that most of the things we are talking about happen because of this disability. But over and over those who are talking about this very disability say that the person CAN learn it just takes a lot of time and repetition. What it also takes is for the errors to be pointed out. The majority of comments have been doing exactly that, pointing out the errors that James is making and repeatedly saying that James needs help with these things. James is ultimately responsible for living with his disability and has chosen a career that is very public and requires a high level of social skill. Many artists and celebrities make asses of themselves on a regular basis and their fans also make excuses for them. While James has a better reason than most for his foot in mouth disease and it certainly is worth trying to give him the benefit of doubt and not consider him to be deliberately insensitive it is still everyone's right to either like or not like him. Understanding what causes his behavior is also not a reason to just let it slide either. Those who have spoken about their own family members struggles have talked about the process of teaching these skills because they are so important to being a functioning member of society. It would be wrong to excuse the person from learning these skill just because of their disability. I am sure that those who work with these kids don't expect them to not try to learn how to cope. The main problem here is that James is having these struggles in a public venue. I don't have a problem with people posting info about Aspergers and explaining how James behavior fits into that diagnosis, and if someone is truly being hateful they should be called on it. But I DON'T think that saying James is being insensitive or inappropriate and that he needs to get some media training is being hateful.
Also just as Adam's lack of filter sometimes pisses people off because he voices an unpopular opinion so too will James' piss people off. Adam gets slammed when he says things people don't agree with and James will get slammed as well. I don't think it is fair to let James off the hook just because of his disability. The remark about extra points for being Christian is going to be offensive to some people even some Christians (myself included). Whether or not James has Aspergers has nothing to do with my being offended by his thought process. Was Mel Gibson any less of an anti-Semite before his drunken rant revealed those thoughts to the world? Did anyone say that Gibson should be excused for those thoughts because he was drunk when he expressed them? Same difference in my opinion. Do I think James is hateful and evil? No I don't, but having good intentions doesn't prevent a person from being a jerk. Being unaware of how your words or actions are received does not make those actions any less hurtful to the person on the receiving end. I would be a lot more sensitive to James if he had at any point in his twitter spree admitted that he had said things about Adam that weren't true and that were insulting. Adam made the first move saying that he had only intended to give critique and not hurt feelings and was not going to say more. If James really was trying to end the "feud" he should have apologized for accusing Adam of betraying his fans.
Most of the comments I have seen here, at MJ's and on twitter have centered around the fact that James is doing himself no favors with his behavior and needs some serious help in dealing with media. All in all many many posters HAVE been giving James the benefit of doubt and not been excessively mean. Having seen the attitude towards Adam when his lack of filter has gotten him in trouble I can say with certainty that James HAS gotten off lightly on the whole. What has concerned me the most is that there seems to be little indication that James has anyone truly helping him rather than making excuses. The other possibility is that he is not taking the advice he is being given. It makes perfect sense to point out the fact that if James was truly seeking advice from Adam the proper way to do that would have been to contact Adam's management with a request not make a request on twitter. Most peoples suspicions were that James was trying to publicly bury the hatchet because he was getting push back on the issue. Many defended James by saying that his disability was the reason he didn't see the inappropriateness of asking this on twitter and felt that it had nothing to do with killing the feud story. Today's tweets however show that clearly James' main motivation WAS killing the feud story and NOT actually getting advice. For me it is not the lack of filter that makes me dislike James but rather what the lack of filter reveals.
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Post by HoppersSkippersMiners on Jun 7, 2011 0:34:53 GMT -5
Hoppers and Maria, I love you both and I understand what you are saying. I'm not being an apologist for James, just trying to shed some light on the disorder. I did say he is brave, I never said he is perfect. Thank you all for your feedback. It means so much to me because Atop is my sanctuary.   |
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Post by maria222pf on Jun 7, 2011 0:37:55 GMT -5
I get that James has a disability and I understand that most of the things we are talking about happen because of this disability. But over and over those who are talking about this very disability say that the person CAN learn it just takes a lot of time and repetition. What it also takes is for the errors to be pointed out. The majority of comments have been doing exactly that, pointing out the errors that James is making and repeatedly saying that James needs help with these things. James is ultimately responsible for living with his disability and has chosen a career that is very public and requires a high level of social skill. Many artists and celebrities make asses of themselves on a regular basis and their fans also make excuses for them. While James has a better reason than most for his foot in mouth disease and it certainly is worth trying to give him the benefit of doubt and not consider him to be deliberately insensitive it is still everyone's right to either like or not like him. Understanding what causes his behavior is also not a reason to just let it slide either. Those who have spoken about their own family members struggles have talked about the process of teaching these skills because they are so important to being a functioning member of society. It would be wrong to excuse the person from learning these skill just because of their disability. I am sure that those who work with these kids don't expect them to not try to learn how to cope. The main problem here is that James is having these struggles in a public venue. I don't have a problem with people posting info about Aspergers and explaining how James behavior fits into that diagnosis, and if someone is truly being hateful they should be called on it. But I DON'T think that saying James is being insensitive or inappropriate and that he needs to get some media training is being hateful. Also just as Adam's lack of filter sometimes pisses people off because he voices an unpopular opinion so too will James' piss people off. Adam gets slammed when he says things people don't agree with and James will get slammed as well. I don't think it is fair to let James off the hook just because of his disability. The remark about extra points for being Christian is going to be offensive to some people even some Christians (myself included). Whether or not James has Aspergers has nothing to do with my being offended by his thought process. Was Mel Gibson any less of an anti-Semite before his drunken rant revealed those thoughts to the world? Did anyone say that Gibson should be excused for those thoughts because he was drunk when he expressed them? Same difference in my opinion. Do I think James is hateful and evil? No I don't, but having good intentions doesn't prevent a person from being a jerk. Being unaware of how your words or actions are received does not make those actions any less hurtful to the person on the receiving end. I would be a lot more sensitive to James if he had at any point in his twitter spree admitted that he had said things about Adam that weren't true and that were insulting. Adam made the first move saying that he had only intended to give critique and not hurt feelings and was not going to say more. If James really was trying to end the "feud" he should have apologized for accusing Adam of betraying his fans. Most of the comments I have seen here, at MJ's and on twitter have centered around the fact that James is doing himself no favors with his behavior and needs some serious help in dealing with media. All in all many many posters HAVE been giving James the benefit of doubt and not been excessively mean. Having seen the attitude towards Adam when his lack of filter has gotten him in trouble I can say with certainty that James HAS gotten off lightly on the whole. What has concerned me the most is that there seems to be little indication that James has anyone truly helping him rather than making excuses. The other possibility is that he is not taking the advice he is being given. It makes perfect sense to point out the fact that if James was truly seeking advice from Adam the proper way to do that would have been to contact Adam's management with a request not make a request on twitter. Most peoples suspicions were that James was trying to publicly bury the hatchet because he was getting push back on the issue. Many defended James by saying that his disability was the reason he didn't see the inappropriateness of asking this on twitter and felt that it had nothing to do with killing the feud story. Today's tweets however show that clearly James' main motivation WAS killing the feud story and NOT actually getting advice. For me it is not the lack of filter that makes me dislike James but rather what the lack of filter reveals. Thank you for summarizing so many diverse points of views and doing it so eloquently, Kudos to you !   |
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Post by gelly14 on Jun 7, 2011 0:43:57 GMT -5
AlohaYour son is so fortunate to have such an articulate advocate who understands him so well. Thanks for sharing your beautiful, compassionate heart. <3 THIS. aloha I love you . You are a brave woman. And thank you for making me understand just a little bit of what JD might going through. |
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kapsiz
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Post by kapsiz on Jun 7, 2011 0:47:06 GMT -5
sugaree I can't find it in my heart to condemn the kid. It seems that he sometimes goes on a tangent that he can't get out of without help. Thankfully his girlfriend, mother of his child, saw what was happening and took over for him. I so understand. As I mentioned earlier, I sometimes have to smooth things over for my son and then get him away for some breathing room. I do believe that there are degrees in every type of mental disorder and no two people exhibit the exact same symptoms. I think James IS good hearted and was trying in his own bumbling way to fix things only to find himself getting more mired down in his own words. He contradicted himself and probably didn't realize it. I know that his words didn't go over well with many people, but he seems to me like a huge puppy falling over his big feet and slobbering around and generally making a big mess - and then standing there wagging his tail wondering why he is being yelled at. Silly comparison I know. Still thinking about my son, I guess. I hope that twitter is not being hateful to James. Very kindly said! My cousin's son is autistic. |
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Post by gelly14 on Jun 7, 2011 0:48:14 GMT -5
Hoppers and Maria, I love you both and I understand what you are saying. I'm not being an apologist for James, just trying to shed some light on the disorder. I did say he is brave, I never said he is perfect. Thank you all for your feedback. It means so much to me because Atop is my sanctuary. Mine too aloha |
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amw
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Post by amw on Jun 7, 2011 1:00:30 GMT -5
aloha, i do adore you, brave and fearless mother.
JD has a disability. Adam does not. JD's lack of filter is completely and utterly uncomparable to Adam's lack of filter.
I hope JD gets some help coping with the attention, the media and dealing with his fans.
Adam doesn't need any help in the social networking sphere. He's got that down. Wish I knew what he was up to......sigh.....no single any time soon, just twitter conversations and rumors. and fearless mothers.
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kapsiz
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that which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet...
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Post by kapsiz on Jun 7, 2011 1:02:12 GMT -5
Aloha - I love you much!!!! I'm crying at what you wrote!! kisses to you.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2011 1:25:12 GMT -5
Aloha and all others who have shared their personal experiences: THANK YOU! I think it is wonderful that we can have this kind of discussions here. We can learn so much from each others! I personally have not followed the hubbub around JD in any other media than Atop, I haven 't even listened to his performances. Therefore I perhaps do not have the "whole picture" of the situation, but based on what I have read here, I have sort of mixed emotions. On one side, I am angry about what has been going on between him and Adam and all that; on the other I almost feel pity for him. I'm really confused... :-/ The top feeling right now, however, is that he needs help: he needs someone who can help him cope with the publicity. In a way, I feel that the AI PTB are responsible for this - they are the ones who originally picked him to the show, and I would think they were aware of his situation at that time. I'm not saying that he shouldn't have been picked - I'm saying that they should have also thought about the possible consequences and reacted accordingly. This is a tricky situation... as one singer, to whom Adam so often is compared, used to sing...
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