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Post by Craazyforadam on Aug 30, 2011 10:50:03 GMT -5
Maybe it'll usher back in an era of singers who can actually sing and not rely on overproduction and vocal tuning to sound good. That would be wonderful...but I am not holding my breath. Look at all the mega success Adele has had and still....the auto tune crap keeps coming. I guess if more and more ppl do it we'll see if there is a shift, and if there is a shift it probably won't be immediately.. Why is the assumption so often that there is only ONE market? There are many. I think that the breakdown by genre is not any more useful to classify our music of today. Everybody makes music and talks about how they blend genres (country to pop, rock to country, hip-hop / urban to R&B, electronic to rock...and on and on and on). Nobody wants to fit into the old boxes. How about we would start selling music more by function. - Work-out music - Quiet Dinner music - Inspirational music, music for a cause - Driving and Trucking - Dance, Party - Tell a Story, theme songs - Cry me a River - Love songs, sex songs - Express/share my feelings - Background listening etc..... I think if the industry would tell people how a song "feels", they could sell more easily, would have more interesting radio programs, people would be less confused and probably more engaged. Sell the experience instead of selling the technical or rhythmic background of the songs or some confusing word like pop. And some songs may fit into two or three categories, even in my short sketchy list above, but give me a song title and the two or three categories it fits into and it probably makes sense to me. Pop - quite frankly does not tell me much anymore. For Katy Perry it fits so 100 % that the label still works, but for Adele? Obviously, not so much. Brings me back to that multiple market question. Adele is in a different market than Katy Perry, even if they are both on the Top 40 chart. They don't have to play by the same rules, don't have to have the same number of singles or roll-out schedules or marketing plans to get attention. Adele's songs are very much "cry me a river" emotional in topic, but yet many people are inspired and perceive it as something new, because the sound is different, the look is different, and we are overfed with artificial fluff and shallow sounds of sexiness. Radio and its PDs are waiting for something new too. I believe Adam has a chance to make his mark, and going real and being of substance is very promising way to go with lots of people. Now the music quality needs to be there in those songs that are single material, then he is going to break through. I think he very much had a lot of quality in FYE album already, but to lesser degree in those tracks that were singles and so the wider market did not quite get the message yet. I am totally optimistic that Adam will have that nailed in album #2. |
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Post by paperheart on Aug 30, 2011 10:52:57 GMT -5
I think it is a case of overproduction rather than poor vocals. The voice isn't the main focus on songs anymore, it's the beat and production but IMO because of the overemphasis on beat and production they overuse the autotuning to change the way the voice sounds to blend with that style of music. That's why so many songs/singers don't sound "as good" live as on record. It's not that they are bad singers, it's that their vocals are too glossy and fake and it's next to impossible to replicate that live.
Adam sounds better live IMO because his voice is able to shine, same with Kelly Clarkson.
If the industry has to tell me how the song "feels" then the song isn't doing it's job IMO.
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Post by melliemom on Aug 30, 2011 10:59:32 GMT -5
Mszue You are right,there are many really good female vocalists out there,but beside Adam, who would you consider good/great male singers in the same league as the women mentioned above.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 30, 2011 11:02:08 GMT -5
mszue, Kanadie would also have information on this topic since he has been an audio engineer in the music business. I recently, read an article that said everyone uses autotune. It is just the extent to which it is used that makes the difference. The gist of the article is that if you can tell it's being used, then it is too much. It said overuse causes a kind of warble, almost a yodel, in the voice. BTW, Katy sounds great live. She did some riffing and improv on some songs that blew me away. She's no Adam Lambert, of course, but who is!  But her music is really not for the purpose of selling her voice. She is selling fun. And I have to say that her concert is the most fun concert I've ever been to. Saw Kesha live also, when Adam did Wango Tango, and listening to her was painful. But I love her because she loves Adam! 
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Post by cassie on Aug 30, 2011 11:08:01 GMT -5
You know what I would be interested in knowing more about...cassie, perhaps you have a better idea than I....is are we really inundated with 'autotune' or is it just what we saw on Adam's album as well...overproduction. I say this because I think we are doing a disservice to some of the singers out there. Who can we really, safely accuse of using autotune and having a poor voice? Ke$ha....of course...but she does not claim to be a singer particular so I do not even really think it fair to include her...but...she does sort of sing. Katy Perry.....definitely needs help in the songs she has chosen. I think she probably has an 'OK' voice but it is a small voice and not up to the stuff she is putting out. J-Lo has the same quality voice as Katy...so have no idea if she has mechanical help or just lots of production Brittany Spears....used to have a very good voice but her stuff is so produced and mechanical that it is hard to find it anymore. Her fans clearly like this...I agree....she is often autotuned and overproduced I do not agree that she can't sing...she just doesn't...much. The rest of the girls can sing, in my opinion, and range from very good to awesome.....Gaga, Adele, Beyonce, Xtina, Jessie J, Nikka Costa, Shakira, Fergie, Mariah....Whitney not so much anymore but that is another story...Jennifer Hudson, Kelly Clarkson, Jordin Sparks,.....if you move out of the Pop genre then of course, they are pretty much all 'good' singers...it is only pop where this is an issue. So my point is...should we be making more of an issue about the over-production generally rather than using the term autotune...or...am I really naive and are all these singers really using autotune? I may be completely off base...would definitely not be the first time... I wonder if they would just cut down on all the 'noise' that drowns out the singer's voice, we might actually get to hear music again,,,
Perhaps it is just that some of us are inching towards our 'best before' stage and losing the ability to separate out layers of sound so that it all sounds like the same rythmic cacophony!! :( :-/ You ask an excellent question. I don't listen to top 40 music much at all, so I do not know how pervasive autotune is. But, the few times I have listened in the car, I hear it a lot. Autotune is ubiquitous these days. It seems to have three uses: 1. To correct minor pitch problems in a recording. Even great singers bobble occasionally. Before autotune, some of the slight bobbles made it into the final recordings. More severe problems meant re-recording the song or parts of it, and splicing together the best parts. But, if there are three slightly "off" notes in a 4 minute song, it is much easier to tweak them with technology than to try and re-record the whole song. Especially when parts of the previous version were exceptionally good, heartfelt, or inspired. To me, that is a totally legitimate use of autotune, and one that can rarely be detected in the final product. 2. To create a specific sound or special effect. This is the autotune that you hear clearly. It is a distortion of the voice to make it sound more electronic. While I don't care for the sound, myself, I recognize that it is a legitimate use of the technology. 3. To make someone sound great on the recording when they naturally have trouble with pitch. This is the use that I think we are objecting to. It is manufacturing a talent where none exists naturally. If you have seen the YT of the dog singing with autotune, you know how much they can clean up the pitch. I think, as you suggested, that we also carp about autotune but actually mean all the electronic stuff the producers do to make a voice sound good. Autotune just makes a note sound on pitch. Other stuff adds resonance, warmth, or power to a voice. Other tricks elongate phrasing when the singer does not have breath control. Or add layers of instruments and vocal backing tracks to cover the fact that the lead singer isn't very strong. Producers have been doing that for generations. Phil Spector's "wall of sound" was created by recording in an echo-y room and layering multiple tracks of the singer singing the melody. Many of your teen pop stars way back to Annette Funicello, couldn't sing that well. The technology has just become more sophisticated, so weaker and weaker voices can make successful recordings. And, with the use of various tricks like strong backing tracks and autotune, can sometimes sound pretty good "live", too. Can most of the divas sing well? Ummmm, define "well." Basically stay on pitch? Yeah. Belt out a number with power? Yeah. Interpret a song with emotion? Yeah. Produce a naturally nuanced, controlled, rich, warm, sound up and down their range, softly and tenderly or loud and proud? Not so much. But pop music doesn't demand that....and often the more "classical" voice doesn't sound that good singing pop. Except for Adam. Yeah, he is the exception to most of the rules. And, don't tell anyone, but he almost certainly uses autotune to fix an occasional missed pitch in recording. |
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Post by mszue on Aug 30, 2011 11:12:02 GMT -5
Mszue You are right,there are many really good female vocalists out there,but beside Adam, who would you consider good/great male singers in the same league as the women mentioned above. Seriously, melliemom, there are lots of very good male singers out there but they do even attempt to break into pop....as a genre...in my estimation. They are in theatre or country or form their own little genre such as Buble and Josh Rogan. Adam came from musical theatre for a reason...that is where the really good singers are. This is part of the reason I always am surprised at the lack of love for musical theatre here.....it is a world unto itself currently. It was not that way years ago but what used to be soul and r&b has now been overtaken by rap and autotune...so no males that sing, bother. To me, it is not Adele that is the anomaly at all....it is Adam. Adam will either start a trend of better and more men in pop...or he will drift back to musical theatre in a few years [up to 5 at most I would think]. Either way, he will be fine and do well....but it is a crap shoot which way pop will go for the men. I suspect most of the good singers are simply not willing to do what they have to do to make it in pop....and to fight the powers that be...when they can have it all except mass-market name recognition...in another genre. |
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cookeejar
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Post by cookeejar on Aug 30, 2011 11:13:02 GMT -5
Just wanted to stop by and let everyone know that I made it back home and everything at my house and my job are fine. We ran from the storm but it found us. The place where we ran was out of power for 2 days and no cable or interent or cell service for 4 days. I will never get my husband to leave for a storm again.
I am releaved but sad that I didn't miss any landbreaking news in Adam Land. I am glad I am old and time seems to fly by or 8 weeks would be an eternity.
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Post by Craazyforadam on Aug 30, 2011 11:15:36 GMT -5
You know what I would be interested in knowing more about...cassie, perhaps you have a better idea than I....is are we really inundated with 'autotune' or is it just what we saw on Adam's album as well...overproduction....... So my point is...should we be making more of an issue about the over-production generally rather than using the term autotune...or...am I really naive and are all these singers really using autotune? I may be completely off base...would definitely not be the first time... I wonder if they would just cut down on all the 'noise' that drowns out the singer's voice, we might actually get to hear music again,,,
...Great post, Mszue.. Do you mean like this? Perhaps that helps explain the phenomenon www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fngEnIkz44&feature=relmfuI personally think it is all about the extent and this video is obviously mocking that. Even Adam said he used it once or twice and does not see himself above it. He is not a purist that does not want anything to do with something like autotune just to show off as a singer. I love when the actual voice of a singer is really present and only a singer who is good at what he/she does can pull this off live. I like variety, I like character, I like uniqueness. Perfection can sometimes be boring and we got a lot of boring running up and down our charts these days and very little character. I think that is one reason why Adele broke through so much and good for her. Adam has originality and uniqueness in spades. If he can package and bundle that in music of today I think he cannot be stopped. Just my opinion...and my hope of course. ETA: Fixed my link - sorry bout that |
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Post by mszue on Aug 30, 2011 11:16:45 GMT -5
mszue, Kanadie would also have information on this topic since he has been an audio engineer in the music business. I recently, read an article that said everyone uses autotune. It is just the extent to which it is used that makes the difference. The gist of the article is that if you can tell it's being used, then it is too much. It said overuse causes a kind of warble, almost a yodel, in the voice. BTW, Katy sounds great live. She did some riffing and improv on some songs that blew me away. She's no Adam Lambert, of course, but who is! But her music is really not for the purpose of selling her voice. She is selling fun. And I have to say that her concert is the most fun concert I've ever been to. Saw Kesha live also, when Adam did Wango Tango, and listening to her was painful. But I love her because she loves Adam! I quite agree mys*&@^#r and I was not meaning that as they do not have a place in pop. I was just commenting on vocal, singing quality, from a barely, partially educated perspective. I am no expert. But...and I know this is heretic at the moment...but I like and admire Adele but I do not think her vocal talents stand up to someone like Xtina or Beyonce. If you put them together in a sing-off [and dis-allowed all that riffing, which I happen to really dislike : ] I think Adele would be out of her league, TBH. hiding behind that couch now...somebody wave when it is safe to come out.... |
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ljsmack
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Post by ljsmack on Aug 30, 2011 11:21:29 GMT -5
It's a wonder the producers know what to do with Adam's voice. A plethora of options. We want them to leave it alone, but to create a sound that's "next," "current," I'm sure some tricks of the trade are necessary and even desirable. I think part of the reason it takes Adam so long is that when he "lives" with a song, he tries his vocal bag of tricks on it until he feels comfortable with it. I think he needs to and chooses to"simmer." So, between Adam's vocal abilities and a producer's electronic abilities, it must take awhile to get the best from a song, and that doesn't even take into account whose best has the last word. Adam always tells a story, and he loves a vocal surprise--wonder if we will get more of lower register in this album? |
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But her music is really not for the purpose of selling her voice. She is selling fun. And I have to say that her concert is the most fun concert I've ever been to. 
