nikki
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Post by nikki on Sept 24, 2012 8:26:22 GMT -5
Hello wonderful people. And how wonderful to finally have some time here. I haven't caught up on what I've missed the last couple of weeks, which is very unusual, although I did read over the last few luscious pages here. Picture. I love this one especially because of the play of light - very otherworldly and higher-self, the sense of stillness and the expression in his eyes. Represents the best in all of us, I feel. Video would have to be Rock my Town performance of Whole Lotta Love: Definitely earthly Adam and earthly responses ;D. It simply does everything that should be done between a performer and audience. A truly beautiful example of a performer in control of himself and therefore free to be in the moment and uninhibited. The girl you can hear saying "OMG, I'm dying" pretty much sums it up. Song is Trespassing, because it says what he wants to say about the state of the world and how he refuses to yield. A couple of thoughts on some things that were being discussed: I have a headache trying to rationalize the 'me to'ism' of people when it come to praising 'natural' intuition and denigrating or downplaying the advantages of education and knowledge. mszue, I actually have vivid memories of sitting in the university library with a throbbing head reading and re-reading 50,000 words of some scholarly article, until finally a light bulb came on and mercifully the moment arrived when I could distill it all down to a few concepts of, "that's what they really mean." I wonder if the debate is really about the value of education/ knowledge at all but about a rejection of unnecessary complexity that passes for "knowledge" and "higher education". Perhaps, in part, it is really about a yearning for educators to express what is complex in the most eloquently simple way possible, and hence the desire for something more "natural". I'm not talking about "dumbing down" here or saying that some things are not inherently complex. I'm talking about manufactured complexity, the tendency to add layers and layers of abstraction that do not add to precision or clarity (the point at which, to me, it becomes intellectualism and peoples' natural "bullshit" detectors kick in). Take your recent example of "emotional labour" discussed here as an example. Every human being alive, ranging from Nicky Minaj's ho alter ego (?), to a Triad member, could understand the notion of having to "act" and that we pay a price for it. The idea itself is well worth understanding and exploring; but presented in that way, it becomes far more difficult to many and incomprehensible to so many more. What a waste. And so, differences become more pronounced - educated vs non-educated, etc, etc, etc and the judgements arising from difference can be so easily drawn and given voice. The cynic in me, of course, thinks it is entirely deliberate on the part of "academia" - "when everybody is a somebody, nobody is an anybody."
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2012 10:30:12 GMT -5
nikki, so GLAD to see your post this morning. I try not to nag when someone is away for a while ... but I had been missing you. Hope we see winter and sugaree in the Garden again soon too. I had not watched Rock My Town videos in a long long time and just got done watching the performances that mika and nikki chose for our space disk project (luv the pix you chose too btw ). Rock My Town came along very early in my Glambert days. I only found Adam through the AMAs and really only started to follow him closely in January 2010. I remember now how Adam seemed so different every time I saw him! At Gridlock he was a demonic sex god; wholesome and emo on the WWFM video; everything from glam to plain during European promo; a drunk/high wild man at Rock My Town; a masculine/feminine shaman at Fantasy Springs. And in interviews, the boy next door. What have I gotten myself into, I wondered? Who are you, indeed? I'm glad you guys brought these videos back, and the I Heart Fever too, because they seem different to me now as an OG than as a new fan. When I was a new fan, I was a little scared of Rock My Town Adam. Here was a man who didn't seem in control to me; a man casting aside his inhibitions to unleash an inner, unbridled sexuality. I was intimidated. Now, as an OG, I find the way he moves and the energy he exudes to seem authentic, free, and really fun. And even though I still don't like everything I see from that time, I know now that there are many Adams ... or rather, that there is one complex, fascinating, and wonderful Adam. It kind of gives me some insight into why Adam can be a hard sell to the uninitiated. Adam is a performer whom it takes time to get to know. To know him is to love him, but first, perhaps, you have to get some hook into him that keeps you coming back long enough for that to happen. nikki, I too keep coming back to thoughts about the discussion about book larnin' vs. intuition. In a lot of ways I think the question is sort of a moot one when it comes to Adam because he is educated. He has done that hard work. I once wrote about a character who was a slave, and was doing a character chart for him. Under education, I started to put "none," and then pulled back and started filling it out -- all what he would have learned from his parents and other teachers. The man was unlettered, but actually highly educated -- an expert in many things and respected for that -- even resented by some. Anyway ... higher ed can and does go astray. How many institutions have been run into the ground in the last several decades by people with advanced degrees? It seems almost impossible that the experts could go so wrong but somehow they do. This does NOT denigrate the experience of people -- including a number of people on this board -- who have put years into developing a deep ability to think critically, to synthesize information and use it to develop new ideas. Where I think we as a culture have gone astray is that we've lost sight of the goals of education. What are they anyway? Are the current offerings producing the outcomes we want? All this in spite of the fact that almost every individual person involved in education at all levels is thoughtful and proud of what they are trying to achieve. No amount of good intentions can substitute for lack of vision and leadership. Where questioning the status quo is threatening, it is in no one's self interest to raise hard questions. It is in everyone's self-interest to go along to get along. So many of our institutions have become paralyzed. Stakeholders prevent solutions that are risky, innovative, or out-of-the-box. In an effort to please everyone, the result is to try to please the lower common denominator. Hmmmm. Sounds a little bit like the music business, doesn't it? What are the goals, anyway? Discovering, producing, and bringing forth awesome music? Or desperately constructing firebreaks? Are the current offerings producing what we want? How many people think that the music business is showcasing risky, innovative, out-of-the-box artists and music; or the lowest common denominator?
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Post by mszue on Sept 24, 2012 11:17:49 GMT -5
nikki....the problem here is that what happens when one resorts to 'off the top of your head', instinctive/intuitive feelings and thoughts is that TRUTH gets buried in exaggeration or over-simplification and the fact is, you may THINK you get it with just a few words....but you rarely do....This is what politicians and some ideologically driven pundits do and it is a disservice to consider this adequate.
Right off the top...for example...Journals set word length guidelines that generally max out at 10,000 words....so your "50,000" claim is generally around a 500% exaggeration. [often 'little' things like this are 'passed over' for fear of aggravating the other person...but it is no small thing, tbh. sorry..and I hate feeling guilty or like I am trespassing on civility by 'keeping it real']
Yes, you are right....there sometimes is manufactured complexity...but often, there is real complexity and skimming over that does not simplify it, it just hides or camouflages it. We don't expect or wish the physical sciences or medicine to 'simplify' complexity so why do we wish the social sciences to do that. When an airplane manufacturer boils down building a plane to its most basic concepts....you do not still believe that you can go home and build a safe, functioning plane...we know that there is a complexity embedded that must be understood.
Emotional labour...to use your example...is a very complex concept that feeds into and is derived from other very complex concepts. Sure, at it's very minimalist core, it is what I posted earlier: "Arlie Hochschild defined emotional labour as PAID LABOUR that requires one to either induce or suppress FEELINGS in order to exhibit a particular proscribed 'face' in order to produce "THE PROPER STATE OF MIND IN OTHERS.” She claimed that the effort to create that 'face' often "draws on a source of self that we honor as deep and integral to our individuality” (Hochschild, 1983, p. 7) She claims there are serious health repercussions for the worker who is forced to DENY who they ‘really are’ and what ‘is really going on,’ and suggests that the emotional worker often EITHER suffers emotional burnout from living in a constant state of emotional suppression, or feels a sense of alienation and inauthenticity ( p. 21)."
The concept was originally, by Hochschild, being applied to people in service industries...in her original research, she was examining Delta airline hostesses [who always had to smile and make passengers feel valued and 'always right'] and bill collectors [who had to act angry and aggressive in the face of sad and frightened debtors]. Other theorists of emotional labour have tried to see how far the concept can be taken and the different circumstances in which the concept does not seem to be applicable. The concept always includes some variations in power dynamics and is contingent in the sense that if the person performing the labour wants to be paid they must 'keep up appearances'. Part of the issue with this concept is that although they cannot do their job PROPERLY if they do not do this labour, the EMOTIONAL LABOUR itself is never explicitly PAID FOR.
Minaj is in no way doing emotional labour. The only time it could be said that she was doing so is if she was hired as a 'ho' and forced, AGAINST HER WILL to act that part....but nobody knew that she was faking it and everyone thought she really was a HO. THEN and only then, could you make the claim she was doing emotional labour...in fact, actually, this falls under the purview of AESTHETIC LABOUR when you talk of the costume she would have to wear to further this concept... [think of Hooters waitresses for this concept]
When we were discussing this concept in the context of Adam...here is the issue. Adam loves wearing make-up and costumes...he has talked of loving that since early childhood. So...dressing up for his concert was a labour of love...not work. What was emotional and aesthetic labour for him was when he was ordered NOT to wear makeup and nail polish when he was in the cast of The Ten Commandments...he has talked often of that and we have his Zodiac ACIGC as proof. We were then talking of his concentrated effort to remove the make-up and present a more REAL persona this second time around and debating/discussing how much this fit into the emotional and aesthetic camp and/or not. NOTE he is starting to wear some of that make up again but it is still nowhere near earlier levels. He was definitely doing emotional and aesthetic labour on idol...particularly in the audition phase...
Much of what fans have praised as 'code switching' is in effect, Adam doing emotional labour. Now, before you jump on this, note that much of that endless research you critique is in fact, how academe expands on the concept to see what and when the concept changes and is enjoyed by the labourer...what is it that makes it pleasurable or a game or just 'acting' and when or to whom it is tedious, painful labour. There are musicians and actors who absolutely hate the promotional requirements of their job and for them, this is true emotional labour. There are others like Adam who seem to enjoy the bulk of it. Researchers try and nail down why this is.....and their conclusions add to our understanding of the concept...but they also add to its complexity.
When we dumb it down to try and minimize its complexity so that others who do not understand the concept do not feel badly, we are being forced to do emotional labour....funny isn't it....but true. It is really sad that sometimes we actually have to feel guilty about our intellectual education and act like it is unimportant and no big deal. For me, that is no more fair than Adam having to answer stupid questions about the AMA.
nikki....I am not being at all personal...I appreciate you having the courage to say what so many others think. I just felt the need to explain the concept and myself more fully. I hope I made sense.....
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sugaree
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Post by sugaree on Sept 24, 2012 13:21:02 GMT -5
Whew. I so want to join this conversation using the right words. To be repetitive, not being able to type well sucks. Did the educated - non-educated thing start out in the daily thread? I could give two shits if Adam quit school in the 10th grade and couldn’t read words, let alone music. The guy can sing and that’s why I became a fan.
I’ll comment out of order on things I’ve read here. Please don’t take any of my comments as attacking or insulting. I’m being short and to the point because of the typing thing.
Do we know for a fact that Adam prefers wearing all the make up all the time? Perhaps he enjoys not wearing it some times. I think I read a comment that he is through with glitter. Perhaps he is on a heavy makeup break and was not told to tone it down by TPTB.
I happen to know flight attendants who took the job because they enjoy being nice and pleasing people as a job. And I know Hooters type waitresses who love wearing skimpy outfits and the reactions they get. I worked at a bar with these scantily clad women and they took the job knowing about the “uniform”. If you don’t want to wear the outfits, don’t take the job. I find it ridiculous that women or men try to find discrimination, sexist and other things to sue the companies over. I’ve said to people who are obviously unhappy with how they make their living “If you don’t like your job, quit.” or to friends “Why did you take that job knowing that you would have to behave a certain way?” I worked at a collection agency as a secretary. The collectors were aware of how they had to come across. It did not seem to be a hardship. IMO, these things are part of the job description.
I did not go to college. It was my choice. We could not really afford it, but my Mom offered to beg, borrow and steal if I wanted to go. I learned how to type, take shorthand and do bookkeeping in high school and made a decent living. I find it ridiculous that most of the administrative jobs I see in the want ads require a college degree. I’ve got 30+ years experience in the field, but can’t get the job because I didn’t go to college?
I admire those who did go. I’m certainly not against it, nor would I put anyone down because of it. Any education is a wonderful thing, however there is a lot to be said for on-the-job training. The thing I do have a problem with currently is that going to college seems to have become expected and required, whether a family can afford it or not. My BIL and SIL went into major debt to get their kids into the best schools. I admire their reasons, but not their concept of the effects it will have on the rest of their lives. They talk about their lack of funds for retirement all the time – not complaining about why, just their inability to do so the way they imagined. I also find it sad that young people don’t seem to want to work in a “trade”. Contracting, painting, carpentry, auto mechanics, etc. are highly skilled crafts usually learned as an apprentice while woreking and getting paid for it. I would consider them art. Yet a lot of society looks down on these jobs for some reason. I don’t think I would be overly upset if my child told me that they wanted to quit college because what they were learning was not what they wanted to do with their lives. Since I’m not a parent, I can only speculate though.
Hell, I’ve got no frikkin’ idea where I’m going with this, but I’ll post it anyway, since I can do so in the moon garden. Sorry for the rant. Carry on.
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sugaree
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Post by sugaree on Sept 24, 2012 14:19:52 GMT -5
I have a feeling that what I posted and what you guys were talking about are two different things, but since it's there and probably been read, I'll leave it. Hope I didn't piss anyone off.......................
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Post by mszue on Sept 24, 2012 14:21:17 GMT -5
Hi sugaree....I am repeating your comment: Please don’t take any of my comments as attacking or insulting. I just feel the need to keep clarifying as it is important that we keep it to what I said...not sort of what I said but what I said...and for me to make it clearer than it obviously was. And yes...it was originally in reaction to things that were said on the main thread. These kinds of conversation don't get allowed on the main thread and that is why they come here. I am not trying to put anyone down...this is a safe place to go into things in depth and to avoid that superficiality that is a necessity on the main thread.
You ask: Do we know for a fact that Adam prefers wearing all the make up all the time? Perhaps he enjoys not wearing it some times. I think I read a comment that he is through with glitter. Perhaps he is on a heavy makeup break and was not told to tone it down by TPTB. Please....when you use the ALL word when I did not, it is the same thing as the previous claim I made re the 50,000 word articles....it simply is not TRUE that I said that....there are harsher terms than this but I am refraining as I do not believe you meant to say an UNTRUTH but it is what it is. Adam...and his parents...and Neal...have claimed in numerous articles that he has loved dressing up from very young...that the costume box had a permanent place in the living room. At no time did I say he wants to wear makeup ALL the time. The example I made of his time on the Ten Commandments comes from numerous interviews in which he has talked of his frustration and HE has openly claimed this frustration fueled his performance of A Change is Gonna Come on the Zodiac show. He openly references it here:
In reference to his most recent toning it down...I ASK the question if this is emotional labour or not as a way to show this is the kind of thing researchers do. I ask if the pressure from radio to be more 'normal' may have fueled the 'keeping it real' metamorphosis or if it was a strategy to try and win over a more reserved fan base that seems to have eluded him. This is not necessarily a bad thing...it just is...or is not...I do not know. I NEVER said, in this context, that it was ORDERED by some nebulous TPTB. Words that are put in someone's mouth are always the property of the person that put them there...not the mouth.
Emotional labour is only detrimental if you did not enjoy doing it....using examples of people that enjoy it does not negate the concept. Also...I clearly noted that...again...much of the research is done to EXPLAIN why some people enjoy it and some don't....what are the variables in play...is it a personality thing....an autonomy thing....etc? At no time did I or would any reputable researcher use terms like ALL, EVERY...etc.....those terms are usually used when statements are taken out of context and then condensed before being re-attributed. That is not TRUE and not FAIR. It is not keepin it REAL.
I am not arguing that everyone should go to university nor am I arguing that people in the trades or that are not college educated are inferior. Hey...I still make my living as a hairstylist. I have spent over 40 years as a trades-person. I did not go to university until I was 42 and that was only because the doctors suggested that I would likely need some retraining as my body would not be able to keep up physically. Well...my rheumatoid arthritis did not get as bad as initially anticipated, and my education did not pay off as it was advertised. So...I work behind the chair as much as I can and I live a reduced lifestyle. But...I do not regret the 20 years of scrimping and long hours of really hard work...I learned such a tremendous amount about the world around me. I love that.
But when people denigrate that work and use exaggerated, anecdotal evidence to say that all that work was for naught and with out doing any of that work, they are brighter and more REAL than I BECAUSE they did not do that work...I have to say that in my humble opinion they are wrong. I never ever said I was better, but I do say I know a lot more now than I did then. And I was always a prolific reader and reasonably intelligent...but I just had not done the work.
We get upset when people say Adam did not DO THE WORK....we reply with information such as the years he studied music and the experience he got on stage. When Ryan complimented Adam on his EFFORTLESS performances, Adam reacted with..."Thanks, it took a lot of WORK to get it that way"....I am saying the same thing. Except...the reaction is not to a compliment but a toss-away....
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sugaree
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Post by sugaree on Sept 24, 2012 14:38:05 GMT -5
Wow, sorry mszue. I did not mean to put words in your mouth. I obviously should have quoted and not use my own words in an attempt to shorten and generalize. I do have to defend myself that I was not referring to YOU as saying that everyone needs to go to college or that YOU said trades and lack of a college education are inferior. And I never said that I am more real because I did not do that work. I had my own kind of education. One is not better than the other. I'll stop and say I'm sorry to offend. I better wait to post until my typing is better and I can say things properly.
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Post by mszue on Sept 24, 2012 15:45:49 GMT -5
Sugaree...please understand I am speaking from a passionate and personal place for sure,...but it is not in anger at you or what you say other than to try and defend what I wrote and why I wrote it. Don't disappear or take offense....if you do, I will feel just as silenced as you are feeling at the moment and that is not what either of us intended. I love talking about all this stuff as it is what I spent so many years doing...as a hairstylist...and then studying and writing about as a student and scholar. When I get the opportunity to talk about it, I can get carried away. Here is what I was trying to get at...and much of what I write is from my frustration at clearly not getting my ideas across completely.
I had written:
"When we were discussing this concept in the context of Adam...here is the issue. Adam loves wearing make-up and costumes...he has talked of loving that since early childhood. So...dressing up for his concert was a labour of love...not work. What was emotional and aesthetic labour for him was when he was ordered NOT to wear makeup and nail polish when he was in the cast of The Ten Commandments...he has talked often of that and we have his Zodiac ACIGC as proof. We were then talking of his concentrated effort to remove the make-up and present a more REAL persona this second time around and debating/discussing how much this fit into the emotional and aesthetic camp and/or not. NOTE he is starting to wear some of that make up again but it is still nowhere near earlier levels. He was definitely doing emotional and aesthetic labour on idol...particularly in the audition phase..."
To which you had replied: Do we know for a fact that Adam prefers wearing all the make up all the time? Perhaps he enjoys not wearing it some times. I think I read a comment that he is through with glitter. Perhaps he is on a heavy makeup break and was not told to tone it down by TPTB."
And that is why I reacted as I did...
Re the makeup...remember we had this discussion in the main thread recently too when someone pointed out that Adam went for his AI auditions 4 days after that Zodiac ACIGC performance!!! 4 DAYS!! That is astounding to me....and for me, absolute proof that that audition..wearing a t-shirt, jeans and runners...no makeup...no particular hair styling....was a direct example of emotional and aesthetic labour. It was purposeful and planned. His tweak of Randy Jackson's outstretched hand asking for a kiss and changing it up to a rapper-style masculine hand-shake...that was just as purposeful. He treated each person on that panel differently...according to THEIR expectations, as best he could ascertain at the time. And, I bet he did his homework!
By the way...when I use caps it is just to draw attention to that term exactly...for clarification.... it is not meant to be 'yelling' in any way but italics are really hard to make work here and I type out my response in word as it is easier that way...then I just cut and paste. Formatting from word disappears when you post....so I use caps...sorry...perhaps should have explained that earlier...apologies for that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2012 16:12:16 GMT -5
I am enjoying the conversation and hope that no one will quit posting for any reason. We have had too much of that on Atop lately. I will scream and cry if anyone else goes away. So there. I do think that several of us are talking and all about different things. My reaction to what sugaree said, and mszue's comment that her education did not pay off, is to come back to the idea that our society is dropping the ball on training and education all the way around. Underemployment is the result; our society is wasting a tremendous amount of human potential. And where is the will to change it? Coming back to the concept of dumbing down, I think it ties in with the lack of conviction among the leadership of our institutions. When you are not sure of yourself then you go for the lowest common denominator. I work at a major research library; much of what I do is create websites and exhibits to showcase our holdings for the general public. In the last few years there has been tremendous pressure to dumb down, to create materials on the 8th grade level. I have never managed to get down below the 10th grade level. Our holdings and the ideas they contain are very complex. The irony is that youngsters are not even permitted here -- so who are we catering to and why? Since when did our whole society begin to revolve around pleasing imaginary 14-year-olds? This question directly relates to Adam's struggles. We are casting away the possibility for nuance and complexity and to gain what exactly? For whom are these products even being created? When did we cease to want to be treated as adults? Want to end on a more positive note because there is something in the air today. When I was going to get coffee I saw a man dancing to music only he and I could hear. That is, he was dancing in perfect harmony with the fast version of We Will Rock You on my iPod. Then on the way back I saw another man "dancing," making patterns in an open area on a segway. And a whole bunch of dancing dragonflies. The last time I saw those was right before Kiev. I choose to believe dragonflies are Adam's personal bug (along with mika's) so I think it's a sign. Insect Dreams by ThuMpeRKA
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sugaree
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Post by sugaree on Sept 24, 2012 16:40:54 GMT -5
mzsue, don't worry I'm not going anywhere. Just wish I expressed myself better in my post. I really really didn't mean to put words in your mouth, which I guess I did. I was coming from reading lots of comments about Adam and makeup over time. Some times I kind of skim instead of reading carefully. Again, I'm sorry. I've loved talking to you here often and I'm not gonna stop if you aren't. Let's have a piggy puff, okay?
juniemoon, love what you just said and "where IS the will to change it?
There is something in the air today. Love the dancing and dragonfly incidents. Interesting thing just happened to me after my comments earlier. I'm having the interior of my house painted. The young man doing the painting and supervising and I were talking and after I complimented him on his work, he said "well I have a college degree, but had to settle for working for my dad painting because I can't get a job in my field". I told him that I was sorry about him not finding a job in his chosen field, but that painting houses is an art and requires a lot of skill and that he should be proud of his work and not feel that he is lowering himself and so on. He said something like he had never heard it put that way before and that he was proud of his dad's skill. We spoke about the whole thing for while. I'm paraphrasing this whole conversation, but you guys get the gist. Interesting that someone popped onto the scene to talk with about it..........
P.S. mzsue, I wasn't yelling when I used caps either. I forget that's what it means in internet land and use it to get the proper inflection (is that the right word?).
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