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Post by Craazyforadam on May 23, 2014 23:37:06 GMT -5
Dropping this off, per Cassie's request. This goes back to the various range discussions, and was triggered by a rather absurd article in the Huffington Post: here is this useless article linked. Click if you must.It is frustrating that when it comes to range, you always have to start by eliminating any discussions with falsely educated folks, who happen to write newspaper articles about 7 octave ranges, and somehow are able to get that crap printed. It is beyond me, how a newspaper of reputation in other areas is so negligent in the area of vocal performances, that such an article makes it, even when it is only their online magazine. If somebody tried to write an article in politics and would neither know states nor candidates correctly, would talk about past elections and be 20 % or 200 % off in the results, and mix up local races and federal races, and house and senate, you think, that person would be able to place their article? Obviously not. I think, it is a total disrespect to the arts, to publish such complete garbage. The level of misinformation is just mind-boggling. And that is, as others already said, one of the objectively measurable parts of vocals. Now I do think that range matters to some degree. If a typical more complex song is 1.5 octaves, then a person who has only 1.5 octave range, needs to sing this song in exactly the one key that will allow the person to fit it within their vocal capabilities. The SSB for instance has a 1.5 octave range, and so most people will find, that if they start it too high or too low for their voice, they can't reach certain keys. Now for most people, once their own range is determined, it is quite normal that the two highest and the two lowest keys of that range, don't sound the best, or even worse, one key in the middle does not. A person with only 1.5 octave range, cannot avoid those keys, and that is why you often hear: Oh say can you see.... (with the word 'say' almost disappearing or being sung wobbly) and at the end... O'er the land of the freeeeeee....(the word free sounding sharp or not pleasant). A person, who has a three octave range, can place the song comfortably in the middle, stay away from any outside edges and other problem zones and has multiple keys and thereby choices to sing the song in. A capella, they can pick whatever they like, but once you sing with a band, then you need to sing the song in a key that is manageable for the instrumentalists. And it is also supposed to sound pleasant when all parts come together. So, then having half an octave of possible key choices while still staying away from the weaker bottom half octave and top half octave, does become a quality that matters. The reality is also that not all keys sound the same. On instruments it does matter to pick a key that sounds good for that song. Therefore you will find, that people who have only limited range a) sing only songs specially written for them or that are otherwise easy b) cannot sing with instrumentalists, who have a lot of artistic ambitions themselves, and obviously c) will use autotune a lot (and yes, they autotune their microphone sound too, to improve things a bit during live performances). So, range gives you choices, gives you freedom, gives you the ability to do with playful ease, what others have to strain to do, and in that sense it matters. Of course, it also gives you more flexibility in song selection. You may not want to do a certain song for many other reasons, but at least range does not become a limiting factor. And all this is also why all the great singers in either rock or classical music happen to have a range that is larger than 1.5 octaves. They need it. That said, at about 3 octaves all these benefits will start to level off. Having more range than that, becomes a game of 'mine is bigger than yours' without any redeeming additional value. I also find that outside of uneducated editorial staff of a certain magazine, otherwise this range comparison game is mostly played by fan bases, and usually the less musically inclined, play it the most. Range is of course only one factor, when it comes to vocals. Breath control and support, dynamics, strength of the voice, beauty of the voice, rhythmical skills, a good ear, a smooth transition from chest to head voice, all these and many more will matter, to form an overall impression of a vocalist, and Cassie has explained that hundred times better already and I love to head over to the vocal materclass thread on a slower day and read a little. Thankfully, with Adam we have nothing to worry about and everything to enjoy, whether some journalists get it or not. |
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Post by bridgeymah on May 25, 2014 17:55:33 GMT -5
Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on girl I posted above - is the standout so far in a pretty lack lustre group of auditions on Voice Oz so far... Hated the song. It was very "one note", literally. F5s repeatedly, belted out. Have no idea what the words were. The gal kinda reminded me a little of Aretha. She sounded strong and unstressed hitting those notes. They were a little on the flat side, but sounded like that was intentional bending to sound bluesy. She had confidence, swagger, and control. But certainly no subtlety. I would like to hear her do something besides belting before developing an opinion on her as an artist. She has potential to be very good. Let's see what else she can do. We are into the Battle rounds and Elly (Korean girl) was paired up with another girl (Jess) with a classical voice (untrained) to sing "O Mio Babbing Caro" - so we had a kind of Opera off... lots of comments on Twitter. Elly got through which I think was a win for training and dedication to craft so yay Ricky for recognition on that front. Interested in take of some of the more knowledgeable people here - I know next to nothing about Opera... www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6yxYgnY2uQ |
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Post by cassie on May 26, 2014 22:00:29 GMT -5
Hmmmm. Closing my eyes and just listening to the two singers, there is no doubt which one is classically trained. Not faulting Jess, who for an untrained singer, sounds pretty good attempting opera. It just didn't work for me.
With Adam I talk a lot about his resonance, the fullness of his tone, and his placement of that tone in his mask. All classical techniques. I hear those things in Elly's voice as well. There is this rich ring to her voice that comes from her finding the sweet spot for focusing the sound. Jess hits the same notes, but the sound is thinner, tinnier, flatter (not in pitch, but in texture). Like Elly is singing in a cave, and Jess in her living room.
Jess also has less consistency in her tone and pitch. Some notes sound much better, and some harsher. Elly's voice floats equally on all the notes. A Hershey's chocolate bar vs a gourmet Lindt chocolate truffle.
IMO.
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Post by bridgeymah on May 26, 2014 22:16:34 GMT -5
Hmmmm. Closing my eyes and just listening to the two singers, there is no doubt which one is classically trained. Not faulting Jess, who for an untrained singer, sounds pretty good attempting opera. It just didn't work for me. With Adam I talk a lot about his resonance, the fullness of his tone, and his placement of that tone in his mask. All classical techniques. I hear those things in Elly's voice as well. There is this rich ring to her voice that comes from her finding the sweet spot for focusing the sound. Jess hits the same notes, but the sound is thinner, tinnier, flatter (not in pitch, but in texture). Like Elly is singing in a cave, and Jess in her living room. Jess also has less consistency in her tone and pitch. Some notes sound much better, and some harsher. Elly's voice floats equally on all the notes. A Hershey's chocolate bar vs a gourmet Lindt chocolate truffle. IMO. Cassie - thanks. I completely agree, that's what I was thinking the whole time they were singing and was so pleased when Ricky decided to take Elly through. That richness you were talking about is what is missing so often, they hit the notes but it just sounds empty. Am certainly listening to this season of The Voice here in Oz with a whole different appreciation and perspective thanks to you and the others on the site sharing their knowledge about voice. Hope you don't mind if a bring a few over from time to time if they strike me as worth a listen. There were two girls last night who were in a battle and it was gorgeous from both of them in completely different ways - gave me chills (and the judges apparently). |
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Post by cassie on May 26, 2014 22:51:55 GMT -5
Hmmmm. Closing my eyes and just listening to the two singers, there is no doubt which one is classically trained. Not faulting Jess, who for an untrained singer, sounds pretty good attempting opera. It just didn't work for me. With Adam I talk a lot about his resonance, the fullness of his tone, and his placement of that tone in his mask. All classical techniques. I hear those things in Elly's voice as well. There is this rich ring to her voice that comes from her finding the sweet spot for focusing the sound. Jess hits the same notes, but the sound is thinner, tinnier, flatter (not in pitch, but in texture). Like Elly is singing in a cave, and Jess in her living room. Jess also has less consistency in her tone and pitch. Some notes sound much better, and some harsher. Elly's voice floats equally on all the notes. A Hershey's chocolate bar vs a gourmet Lindt chocolate truffle. IMO. Cassie - thanks. I completely agree, that's what I was thinking the whole time they were singing and was so pleased when Ricky decided to take Elly through. That richness you were talking about is what is missing so often, they hit the notes but it just sounds empty. Am certainly listening to this season of The Voice here in Oz with a whole different appreciation and perspective thanks to you and the others on the site sharing their knowledge about voice. Hope you don't mind if a bring a few over from time to time if they strike me as worth a listen. There were two girls last night who were in a battle and it was gorgeous from both of them in completely different ways - gave me chills (and the judges apparently). This thread was designed for discussions and questions about the voice and singing techniques. You are more than welcome to bring samples, questions and thoughts here. The more, the merrier. |
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Post by momtomany on May 26, 2014 23:15:24 GMT -5
Just came over; curious about your comment on the regular thread, bridgey.
Both you and Cassie have it right about the two girls; both have lovely voices, IMO, but Elly shows what vocal training can accomplish; Jess shows the potential and the need to harness and hone her gift.
I have another comment, while I'm here. I haven't followed this thread, but I've read elsewhere this ongoing conversation about vibrato in general, and Adam's, specifically.
Let me say, from my experience and my years of singing and study of voice, that true vibrato is not something you make or manufacture - - - it just IS. It happens in a free, head voice. It's like the heartbeat of sound. I can sing without vibrato - but I have to try to make the sound a 'straight' tone. If I relax and just let the singing note 'be', vibrato just happens; the natural pulsation of the sound through my vocal chords. I say this because I've gotten the impression that many think that trained vocalists make the vibrato happen. No! Trained vocalists have to push to make the vibrato disappear!
Does that make sense?
Someone will take a voice like Jess' - and will work with her through breath control, phrasing, freeing and placing her tone and resonance in the front of her forehead (the face) - and she will absolutely shine.
A vocalist will tell you; certainly a trained vocalist will assure you, that a free voice is aptly named. It doesn't feel as if it comes from your throat. Your voice spins almost effortlessly from your head. There is no strain. You feel as if you could sing for days! Your BREATH CONTROL and SUPPORT is what gives flight and direction. It's the key. It's one of the techniques that sets Adam apart from all others. This fundamental he has conquered in spades.
But, I digress. Back to Adam's vibrato. It's rich and it's a part of his voice. He knows how to support and control it. He knows how to eliminate it by pushing through a phrase or even a note. He is a master of his voice. He's been playing with his instrument his whole life. I think he saw his voice as this incredible thing, very early on. He could stretch it, bend it, squeeze it, mimic others with it, blow the windows with it, or whisper. He's searched every nook and cranny of it and, maybe most importantly, he knows he can trust it. He cares for his instrument, and, in turn, it leads him to excellence and emotion. And we are the receivers of his commitment. We honor what he always knew was exceptional. We are opening the gift of our lifetimes when he steps onto the stage.
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Post by bridgeymah on May 27, 2014 6:44:55 GMT -5
Ok promise I won't bombard this thread, but have been waiting for you tube to be up to bring this over. This was a gorgeous battle between to other girls (girls much stronger this year)... Has been quite rare this season so far for songs to be done justice (won't subject you to the train wreck two other girls made of Kelly Clarkson on same night as this). I think Kylie made the right choice - Candice has a lovely voice, but Thando has a more unique voice (though a tiny bit nasally at times): youtu.be/EqsY31X9plo |
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Post by red panda on May 27, 2014 9:05:58 GMT -5
Hi Cassie I have a couple of questions for you. In my mind, Adam is a fully trained, fully practiced, fully experienced singer. I know it is tough to compare him to younger, less experienced, less trained singers. For instance, Caleb. I have no idea what his training background is, I know he has been doing gigs for a while. Adam never, to my knowledge, "lost" his voice during Idol. And his range and vocal calisthenics were amazing, he never seemed to hold back. Caleb did "lose" his voice. I understand he said he was sick. I can't help but think that he is less trained and less respectful of his instrument. So, the question: Do you think that Caleb has had vocal training? We know that Adam had at least a year of operatic vocal training. The questions (and ones I wish someone would ask Adam): How do you think his operatic training informs his voice today? What vocal techniques do you see that reveal that training? Is it readily apparent to you (even if you didn't know) that he has had that training? Thanks, grateful to have an expert on these boards! ETA: This has always been a favorite of mine, what do you think Adam could do with this? www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jf9Lsd6uh-o |
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Post by Craazyforadam on May 27, 2014 11:24:15 GMT -5
Has Caleb had vocal lessons? Well, to some degree, it becomes a question of extent.
I can ask, have you had Spanish lessons, and a person says yes, because they had one year of high school Spanish, two times a week. And another person has taken 8 years of Spanish, learned from a native speaker and is completely fluent.
Both will answer the question 'have you had lessons' with 'yes', but the difference in extent is everything.
Caleb has had lessons with a vocal coach, while on idol, as we know they all do, and I assume he had some training prior to idol. None of these idol kids come out of nowhere to be discovered, they all come with previous experience and some form of vocal instruction.
When Debra Boyd gets these idol finalists, there is only so much she can do to correct any habits or improve what she finds. She does not have the luxury of doing hours of nothing but breath control exercises. If the singer has not put his proverbial 10,000 hours in, then nothing that happens during idol will replace that. The muscles and brain are just not trained to do, what a fully trained singer can do.
Caleb generally has a good ear. He usually hears when he is a bit flat or sharp and he tries to correct it, not always successfully, though, because he does not seem to have enough breath control to fix it. Breath control takes a long to time to get right. Caleb is I'd say 'in training', when it comes to breath control, it sure does not seem to be instinctual, when I watch him. What happens next, is that he pays attention to pitch and works it out, and then that is all the attention he can give. The problem with that is, his phrasing is often poor and he can get rhythmically off quite easily, as his SSB demonstrates. Between nerves, trying to get pitch right, trying to have the breath he needs to sing every line, he is unable to concentrate on anything else, and so he runs through the song, ahead of the music and furthermore, he has no room free in his head, to think about dynamics, interpretation of lyrics, diction.
And, if you compare it to my post above:
Oh, say can you see (his 'say' is almost disappearing)
...
land of the freeeee (Caleb is flat on that note, not sharp, but it is still off, and you can hear him trying to correct it)
Please, understand me right, I agree with what was said, that Caleb is doing a decent job here with that song, he is by no means the worst, but in comparison to the best, i.e. our guy, he has a long way to go.
You listen to Adam, and when it comes to breath control, Adam is superman. Unbelievable, and yes totally instinctual. He knows he can trust his voice to deliver the right vocals with a song like SSB, and so he has time to play around with interpretation. He has this complete arsenal of techniques at his fingertips, that allow him to just playfully add or alter an element.
It's like speaking a foreign language with ease, versus trying to get out a sentence in Spanish and not mess up. There is a world of a difference.
Btw, not so much for the SSB example, but in his own more rhythmical music or in some Queen music, what I see Adam doing, is to ground himself in the rhythm of the song, sometimes you can see him wobble his shoulders, tap his feet, or shake his whole body, to physically pick up on that beat, and then he just floats on top of that layer with what he is doing vocally. Never heard Adam run away or lag behind, he does that instinctively right, just like the breathing. And sustained in that manner, and then trusting his pitch, he is comfortable and can put his concentration on the interpretive side of things, or into connecting with the audience, or just playing around on stage.
He makes it look effortless.
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Post by cassie on May 27, 2014 12:19:32 GMT -5
Great answer, craazy. Thanks. I agree that Caleb had coaching like all the Idol contestants get. That can improve and refine performances a little, but, a person can only do what they know how to do. When Adam was a mentor he had some very specific and good suggestions, but when the contestants performed, they didn't follow thru with many. Why? Because they couldn't do it. They did not have control of the voice, the breathing, the muscles. They didn't know HOW to do what he suggested.
If I am rehearsing for a show and the director tells me to throw in a couple of pirouettes during the instrumental break, it's not gonna happen. She may even demonstrate a pirouette multiple times for me. Doesn't matter. My body doesn't know how to move like that. Singers without formal, more classical training may have great natural voices, but there are things they simply cannot do.
Adam started formal voice training at only 10 years of age. He has said that he continued thru his early twenties, so he has had more than a decade of training. Not just occasional coaching or suggestions. Training with assignments, drills, scales, and daily practice schedules. He has said he studied a variety of styles including a year of opera. That kind of training, for that length of time, with that intensity, plus a rigorous performance schedule for years brands your body and brain with techniques that you don't have to consciously think about. Techniques you can call upon to make a certain sound, turn a certain phrase, power a certain melody, hit a certain note, high or low, with the quality and strength you choose. Technique for a highly trained singer like Adam gives him control and consistency in performance. Like you said, it also allows him to consciously focus on other things and multi-task.
Could I tell that he had formal voice training when I first heard him? Absolutely. He had me at "Mama." Just those couple of phrases, and I knew he had an exceptional, well trained, classically trained voice.
What are the hallmarks? First and foremost is his tone. I keep talking about how resonant it is. How pure and ringing. What a rich range of harmonic frequencies are incorporated. How well focused it is in his mask. Singers don't just stumble upon the technique to produce that tone. They must be taught. They must try and fail, try and fail, try and succeed, try and triumph. Little by little until they can produce it consistently throughout their range.
The second clear indication is his breath support, breathing, and phrasing. You almost never hear him run out of breath before the end of a musical or lyrical phrase. Virtually never in the middle of a word. He doesn't hit one note with a sledge hammer and another with a wimpy whisper. His phrasing is controlled, planned, musical and interpretive.
Trained singers strive to transition between various parts of their range smoothly without any noticeable breaks. Adam is a master at that. From bottom to top in Runnin, for example, the tone sounds the same. When you hear a noticeable shift or break from power to light floating tone, it is not because that is the only way Adam can hit those notes. It's because that is how he WANTS the note to sound for purposes of interpretation.
Adam's voice floats. It soars. It sounds sweet and ethereal or like he has superpowers and three lungs, but there is a free quality to it regardless. It may sound forceful, but never forced. Again, superb technique.
When a singer is using the proper technique and is taking care of his voice, there is much less of a chance that he will strain or damage it. Like skimming on top of the snow instead of plowing thru the drifts. Like angels ice skating. It is the only way Adam could make it thru 120 GNT concerts, and the only way he will make it thru what is becoming a longer and longer Queen tour. Caleb, in all probability, damaged his voice not because he was "sick", but because he was misusing it. Not his fault. He doesn't know any other way. Hope he will get more in-depth voice training. But, sadly, as someone said recently, people seem to be proud of the fact that they never had voice lessons, and see no need to pursue them now. (For many, that will mean only pursuing them AFTER they have permanently damaged their cords.)
Okay, you got me embroiled in my all-time favorite topic. I will stop my lecture now. Thanks for asking.
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It is frustrating that when it comes to range, you always have to start by eliminating any discussions with falsely educated folks, who happen to write newspaper articles about 7 octave ranges, and somehow are able to get that crap printed.
