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Post by nica575 on Mar 6, 2011 17:46:45 GMT -5
Cassie - great "voice production" post! I am always in awe of the opera singers who produce that gorgeous, strong sound, from behind a huge orchestra and I can hear every smallest sound they produce sitting all the way up by the ceiling at the Met (well, thanks to the acoustics the sound up there is actually better than in the orchestra seats).... no mics...Not only that, they produce that sound in any possible position as called for by the role - sitting down, laying down, with their head hanging below their torso... whatever, no mics to enhance anything, just their own bodies... I always feel sorry for all the other genres that have to use amplification - they all sound "fake" to me... anyway, I mentioned that crossing the genre is very, very difficult if not impossible. Even for the superb opera singers. The latest example that I know of is the attempt by one of the greatest sopranos of our time Renee Fleming to make a rock album (it was not her idea, but that's a different story). Here is the result - judge for yourself ( a single from her rock album): and here is her "real" voice (and I am being sneaky here and plugging in my 'opera love' Dmitri Kvorostovsky - the best and the sexiest baritone in the world  and Renee in a solo aria: so, the bottom line - she tried to do the rock sound and came out with a flat and non-interesting performance... all the brilliance of her voice disappeared... |
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four56
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Post by four56 on Mar 6, 2011 17:58:54 GMT -5
This discussion is so educational! Listening to Pavorotti and Bon Jovi makes me wonder why they wanted to sing together. Is it just to be able to expose themselves to each others audiences? A few years ago, I saw Diana Ross and Pavarotti in concert in a huge arena. I thought Diana Ross should not have been there, because the inevitable comparison did her no favors at all. Her voice sounded weak and like she was definitely past her prime.
The same could not be said for Freddie Mercury singing "Barcelona" with Montserrat Caballe, but, as much as i love him, I was a little embarrassed for him and and did not think the comparison did him any favors. I remember Freddie commenting in an interview that he was unprepared the first time he sang with her because she came out like a f...ing volcano and he realized he was going to have to step up his game so he wouldn't be overpowered.
I'm also struck by how much easier the rock singers are to understand, probably because of the way the opera singers must pronounce their vowels, as Cassie explained.
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Post by cassie on Mar 6, 2011 18:27:31 GMT -5
nica: Did someone kidnap her child and force her to make that pop song as ransom????? ??? ??? What a total waste of a voice. The song has less than an octave range, and all of it too low for her. Boring song, strange video, pointless use of an exceptional talent. Don't know what else to say.
I agree with you there is nothing like the experience of sitting high up in a hall with great acoustics and hearing someone fill the hall with their voice, unmiked. You and I will continue to fantasize that one day it will be Adam.
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Post by cassie on Mar 6, 2011 18:41:04 GMT -5
This discussion is so educational! Listening to Pavorotti and Bon Jovi makes me wonder why they wanted to sing together. Is it just to be able to expose themselves to each others audiences? A few years ago, I saw Diana Ross and Pavarotti in concert in a huge arena. I thought Diana Ross should not have been there, because the inevitable comparison did her no favors at all. Her voice sounded weak and like she was definitely past her prime. The same could not be said for Freddie Mercury singing "Barcelona" with Montserrat Caballe, but, as much as i love him, I was a little embarrassed for him and and did not think the comparison did him any favors. I remember Freddie commenting in an interview that he was unprepared the first time he sang with her because she came out like a f...ing volcano and he realized he was going to have to step up his game so he wouldn't be overpowered. I'm also struck by how much easier the rock singers are to understand, probably because of the way the opera singers must pronounce their vowels, as Cassie explained. I have wondered the same thing. It is not a natural cross over. Don't know many lovers of one genre that enjoy the other. Diana's fans are not gonna run home and download Pavarotti's latest single! And vice versa. As for Freddie singing with Montserrat, the video would not play. Said VEVO would not permit it. But I have heard other recordings of the two singing Barcelona with a full orchestra and choir. Several people have thrown that at me when I have touted Adam's unique ability to cross genres. "See, Freddie can do it, too." Um, no, he can't. Put him in a tux, stand him beside an opera singer in front of an orchestra, and he still is a rock singer. It just makes it glaringly apparent that he doesn't have the technique or control that a classically trained singer does. Of course, Montserrat would totally suck singing WLL, too. I am not gonna argue with any Freddie fans about whether he is the best rock front man ever. I don't know what the criteria for that title are. And I don't care to listen to about 100 great rockers in order to figure it out. It is not a genre that speaks to my soul. But, don't try to convince me that he is the best SINGER ever. Ain't gonna happen. |
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Post by nica575 on Mar 6, 2011 20:10:59 GMT -5
nica: Did someone kidnap her child and force her to make that pop song as ransom????? ??? ??? What a total waste of a voice. The song has less than an octave range, and all of it too low for her. Boring song, strange video, pointless use of an exceptional talent. Don't know what else to say. I agree with you there is nothing like the experience of sitting high up in a hall with great acoustics and hearing someone fill the hall with their voice, unmiked. You and I will continue to fantasize that one day it will be Adam. Here is the interview where she is talking about the album - it is quite interesting: I could not listen to the Freddie/Montseratt video either, but I have heard that performance and I remember feeling embarrassed for Freddie... as I was embarrassed for Bon Jovi... for no reason of course, it is just impossible to sing next to an opera star of the caliber of those two and come across powerful... |
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Post by musicgirl on Mar 7, 2011 14:39:36 GMT -5
Hi Cassie and everyone else, I have a question, but first let me say that I've always loved "Barcelona". Ok, I've been a massive fan of Queen and Freddie in particular my whole life, but I hope you'll believe me when I tell you that I'm usually pretty objective and also open to different perspectives-objectively, I agree with what all of you are saying, regarding the technique, control etc, it's true. I did a lot of classical choir so I know it's true, BUT-to me, in this song particularly, it's not important. The way I've always heard and interpreted the song, it's about different people,artists(or athletes..after all, it was a song for the Olympics), with different backgrounds, styles, anything that is different really, coming together to celebrate this one event and one city. The difference in them and their singing styles is what makes that song beautiful, IMO. And the sheer joy, passion and emotion in their performance-I can never make it through the end without crying!! Sometimes, the only important thing is bringing out the emotion. If that's accomplished, everything else pales in comparison- just my two cents. And yes, objectively and subjectively, Adam would blow it out of the water-both technically and emotionally:))) I hope it happens one day:) Now, to my question for you, Cassie; I've always wondered ( I hope it wasn't discussed before?) what's your opinion on Adam's vocal in FYE single? AI heard a lot of people saying it's too low for him, but IDK, I kind of like the way he sounds in his lower register (sexy and seductive, IMO). He's much improved since, say, last year but I didn't think it was (that) bad even then. Also, I must say I preferred the slightly lower key to songs,like he did on GNT. Sleepwalker, i.e., sounds much better and has a better feel to the overall meaning of the song when it's sung just a step down-what do you think? His voice seems warmer, fuller somehow. (BTW; I've read some of the discussion on DDD forums, and one of the posters saying quite the opposite; he thought Adam's middle register was nothing out of the ordinary and that he should stick with his upper one, as that was the exceptional one). What do you say to that? Personally, being in love with Adam's voice for so long, I can't tell anymore. His voice sounds amazing to me in any key, I really can't hear those nuances anymore:) |
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Post by cassie on Mar 7, 2011 15:38:08 GMT -5
Hi Cassie and everyone else, I have a question, but first let me say that I've always loved "Barcelona". Ok, I've been a massive fan of Queen and Freddie in particular my whole life, but I hope you'll believe me when I tell you that I'm usually pretty objective and also open to different perspectives-objectively, I agree with what all of you are saying, regarding the technique, control etc, it's true. I did a lot of classical choir so I know it's true, BUT-to me, in this song particularly, it's not important. The way I've always heard and interpreted the song, it's about different people,artists(or athletes..after all, it was a song for the Olympics), with different backgrounds, styles, anything that is different really, coming together to celebrate this one event and one city. The difference in them and their singing styles is what makes that song beautiful, IMO. And the sheer joy, passion and emotion in their performance-I can never make it through the end without crying!! Sometimes, the only important thing is bringing out the emotion. If that's accomplished, everything else pales in comparison- just my two cents. And yes, objectively and subjectively, Adam would blow it out of the water-both technically and emotionally:))) I hope it happens one day:) Now, to my question for you, Cassie; I've always wondered ( I hope it wasn't discussed before?) what's your opinion on Adam's vocal in FYE single? AI heard a lot of people saying it's too low for him, but IDK, I kind of like the way he sounds in his lower register (sexy and seductive, IMO). He's much improved since, say, last year but I didn't think it was (that) bad even then. Also, I must say I preferred the slightly lower key to songs,like he did on GNT. Sleepwalker, i.e., sounds much better and has a better feel to the overall meaning of the song when it's sung just a step down-what do you think? His voice seems warmer, fuller somehow. (BTW; I've read some of the discussion on DDD forums, and one of the posters saying quite the opposite; he thought Adam's middle register was nothing out of the ordinary and that he should stick with his upper one, as that was the exceptional one). What do you say to that? Personally, being in love with Adam's voice for so long, I can't tell anymore. His voice sounds amazing to me in any key, I really can't hear those nuances anymore:) Re: Barcelona. You make a very good point. The performance is moving. It is definitely enjoyable. Freddie is being Freddie, and he is very good at that. I was commenting on it solely from the perspective of folks saying it is an example that Freddie can sing opera. No, he didn't in that performance. But, it does not diminish what he did. As to FYE: Here is what I hear. Adam has a wicked range. Sorta a tenor and a mezzo soprano combined. But, FYE has him singing that whole first verse near the bottom of his range. I like his sound in his lower register, it is warm but not dark. However, he does not have much power in that register, particularly at the lowest part. I hear a break in his voice at about a F#3/G3. Below that he has little resonance. When he sings "So hot, out the box, can we pick up the pace" "out the box" is right at that break point, and "can we" is an Eb3, below that break. He just doesn't have the anatomy to hit those notes with power and punch. In a song like Aftermath, that gentle low register works well, but FYE needs the punch and the sharpness of tone because of the lyrics and the tempo. (It would sit better for a baritone --- tho a baritone could not handle the higher parts of the song.) I think that is what folks are commenting on when they criticize the vocals. I agree that he was going for sexy, seductive, dark in pitching it that low, but I am not sure he was as confidently successful with it. I also like the slightly lowered pitch for many of the songs on the GNT. I agree that it is particularly effective in Sleepwallker. Again, it has to do with anatomy and where his voice naturally breaks. I hear the natural break between chest and head voice around G4. When he goes above that he has to choose to do it in head voice, or push the chest voice up, or blend the two. (all of which he can do very well, but each has a slightly different sound). In the original key, the first phrase, "I saw a picture of you" straddles that break. "Picture" is G4, and "of" is A4, above the break. Since that first phrase is light and pensive, not powerful, he shifts into the head voice for the A4 (and sometimes at G4), and then back down. It is a quick shift chest to head to chest, which is difficult. Consequently, the A4 sounds lighter, and he skims it quickly. Just a bit awkward to my ears. The concert version is lowered a full step, putting the phrase all within his chest voice. It sounds stronger yet still light that way. (Later in the song he sings the same musical phrase with anger rather than pensively, and powers the chest into those notes in both versions.) As far as the DDD guy saying Adam's mid range is nothing special ---- not sure where THAT is coming from. His mid range is so crystal, and so flexible --- he can hit the most tender notes or pound them with power. Considering that the DDD guy is a fan of power rock vocals, I suspect he is used to the rock singers who sing those notes with that strained, pushed, sometimes raspy tone and power it out. That is what sounds exceptional to their ears. Someone recently quoted the apt idiom, "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." The DDD guys tend to appreciate high rock wails above all else, and powerful, pushed mid range second in importance. That's how rock usually sounds. I don't think they appreciate the subtlety or difficulty of what Adam does in that range. It doesn't sound weighty or raw enough for them. Therefore, bland, and ordinary???? Just my guess. I didn't bother to challenge the guy's post. Not worth it when I know I hear things with different ears, and value different techniques and approaches. Thanks for the great comments! You've got a good ear! |
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Post by musicgirl on Mar 7, 2011 16:48:08 GMT -5
Re: Barcelona. You make a very good point. The performance is moving. It is definitely enjoyable. Freddie is being Freddie, and he is very good at that. I was commenting on it solely from the perspective of folks saying it is an example that Freddie can sing opera. No, he didn't in that performance. But, it does not diminish what he did. Cassie, first of all, thank you for taking time to write such a long and thoughtful reply, and also thank you for your kind words:) I hope it didn't sound like I was criticizing you all re: Barcelona; quite the contrary!  I agree, Freddie is not an opera singer, but (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!  I don't think he was even going for that sound on that song(not that it really matters, and I believe we essentially agree on the subject:)). I like his sound in his lower register, it is warm but not dark. However, he does not have much power in that register, particularly at the lowest part. He just doesn't have the anatomy to hit those notes with power and punch. In a song like Aftermath, that gentle low register works well, but FYE needs the punch and the sharpness of tone because of the lyrics and the tempo. My thoughts exactly. Aftermath is a wonderful example of his lower register being really resonant and expressive, while I'll admit FYE sounded a bit hollow at times. However, I think he improved over time, it sounded a lot sharper and dynamic as early as on the MTV UK version, not to mention by the end of the GNT. Obviously, he CAN improve it to some extent, I'm just not sure how much, given his natural...I'm not sure what's the word here...abilities? :-/ ( I hate not knowing all English technical terms!!gah..!!). I'd love to hear more of your thoughts about it. Finally, I'd love to hear Adam sing with his "rock" voice a bit more. I truly love all of his "voices", so to speak, but given that my personal preferences always gravitate more towards rock (or jazz, soul, blues), I so love that raspier quality he brings to his voice when singing rock! I could listen to him for hours singing "Enter Sandman" From what I've gathered from your earlier posts, you prefer his "clear" voice, right? We're so lucky that with Adam,we'll always get to hear both sides equally, I think Thank you again for your comments, love this thread and your posts, I've learned so much! |
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Post by musicislife on Mar 7, 2011 17:34:16 GMT -5
My thoughts exactly. Aftermath is a wonderful example of his lower register being really resonant and expressive, while I'll admit FYE sounded a bit hollow at times. However, I think he improved over time, it sounded a lot sharper and dynamic as early as on the MTV UK version, not to mention by the end of the GNT. Obviously, he CAN improve it to some extent, I'm just not sure how much, given his natural...I'm not sure what's the word here...abilities? :-/ ( I hate not knowing all English technical terms!!gah..!!). I'd love to hear more of your thoughts about it. Hi Musicgirl (I like your username!) - I agree with you on the FYE vocals. He definitely improved it over the course of GNT - I was at the last 2 LA shows and FYE sounded so great live, not at all shrill. Your English is great too! Cassie, Thank you so much for replying to my question about the key Adam sings WLL in a few pages back. I've been swamped with real life and haven't been able to get back here as quickly as I would have liked. I absolutely love reading all of your comments about Adam's technical abilities and all about vocals in general. My main area of study was piano & violin and although I sang in school, I didn't have private vocal lessons so I love learning more about it. Thanks for all of the time you take to give such detailed explanations and examples, it's wonderful! I don't know if you watched Idol during Adam's season, but I was contasntly irritated/bummed that the judges never mentioned or explained WHY Adam's voice is so good. I don't want to get into a re-hash of the season, because it's over & done & it will always be a WTF to me that he didn't win I've moved on, but the way the judges didn't bother to use even a few words to shed some light on how technically amazing his voice is was a dis-service to Adam. I think people got annoyed with the constant (but well-deserved) praise and didn't understand why a guy who "screams" all the time was considered so good. Maybe the judges lacked the knowledge to articulate why, or got caught up in the moment after his performances, who knows. But it would have been nice to clue the audience in a bit on his technical abilities. I just never understood how anyone could hear those high notes & think it was a scream. I get it if that's not pleasing to some people's ears to hear a man hit notes like that, but the thing is - they were notes. Not screams. Ok, shutting up now. I have A LOT of feelings about the topic of Adam & screaming.  One of the other things I absolutely love about Adam's style of singing is the way he doesn't chop up phrases. I know you've posted about this before and how he extends his breath & the musical line through phrases. It's also amazing to me how long he can hold notes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but holding notes or executing runs in one breath in anything over 8-10 seconds is not the norm for pop singers and is not easy to do. In reviewing the GNT tour WLL's, I listened to Knoxville again and he holds the final note for almost 17 seconds. WHAT THE HELL? He's ridiculous! And I mean that as a compliment! |
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Post by musicgirl on Mar 7, 2011 18:26:54 GMT -5
My thoughts exactly. Aftermath is a wonderful example of his lower register being really resonant and expressive, while I'll admit FYE sounded a bit hollow at times. However, I think he improved over time, it sounded a lot sharper and dynamic as early as on the MTV UK version, not to mention by the end of the GNT. Obviously, he CAN improve it to some extent, I'm just not sure how much, given his natural...I'm not sure what's the word here...abilities? :-/ ( I hate not knowing all English technical terms!!gah..!!). I'd love to hear more of your thoughts about it. Hi Musicgirl (I like your username!) - I agree with you on the FYE vocals. He definitely improved it over the course of GNT - I was at the last 2 LA shows and FYE sounded so great live, not at all shrill. Your English is great too! Cassie, Thank you so much for replying to my question about the key Adam sings WLL in a few pages back. I've been swamped with real life and haven't been able to get back here as quickly as I would have liked. I absolutely love reading all of your comments about Adam's technical abilities and all about vocals in general. My main area of study was piano & violin and although I sang in school, I didn't have private vocal lessons so I love learning more about it. Thanks for all of the time you take to give such detailed explanations and examples, it's wonderful! I don't know if you watched Idol during Adam's season, but I was contasntly irritated/bummed that the judges never mentioned or explained WHY Adam's voice is so good. I don't want to get into a re-hash of the season, because it's over & done & it will always be a WTF to me that he didn't win I've moved on, but the way the judges didn't bother to use even a few words to shed some light on how technically amazing his voice is was a dis-service to Adam. I think people got annoyed with the constant (but well-deserved) praise and didn't understand why a guy who "screams" all the time was considered so good. Maybe the judges lacked the knowledge to articulate why, or got caught up in the moment after his performances, who knows. But it would have been nice to clue the audience in a bit on his technical abilities. I just never understood how anyone could hear those high notes & think it was a scream. I get it if that's not pleasing to some people's ears to hear a man hit notes like that, but the thing is - they were notes. Not screams. Ok, shutting up now. I have A LOT of feelings about the topic of Adam & screaming. Once of the other things I absolutely love about Adam's style of singing is the way he doesn't chop up phrases. I know you've posted about this before and how he extends his breath & the musical line through phrases. It's also amazing to me how long he can hold notes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but holding notes or executing runs in one breath in anything over 8-10 seconds is not the norm for pop singers and is not easy to do. In reviewing the GNT tour WLL's, I listened to Knoxville again and he holds the final note for almost 17 seconds. WHAT THE HELL? He's ridiculous! And I mean that as a compliment! , your whole post is beautiful, I agree with everything you said! One thing that never ceases to amaze (and unnerve!)me is someone saying Adam screams. OK, I know not everyone has a good ear, or much musical knowledge, and we all hear music differently, BUT STILL!!! C'MON..!!:-)Luckily, I've learned so much from Adam, including accepting and moving on from ( cough such stupid!! cough LOL) contrary comments, so I don't pay much attention to it anymore. It really is, either you like it or you don't. (OK; I have several other theories as to why is that, but that's an entirely different topic ). So glad you got to see him twice:) I've only seen him once in Vienna, and he sounded out of this world-good:) I especially remember being blown away by his ROF vocal that night( although,when I listen back, he definitely had better days, esp.with his breathing being all chopped in the wailing part at the end, but still! it sounded amazing at the venue) and Sleepwalker, always a favorite of mine I hope we get to chat more; I too play the piano and did choir for about 7 years but I don't consider myself a musical expert of any kind- however I love the discussion and love to learn! PS I think YOU have a great-and true!!!-username!!!I actually don't like mine so much-it was the first thing that came to mind, and I don't know whether there'd be a point in changing it now, so...But I'm glad you like it! |
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