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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2013 16:25:06 GMT -5
There was discussion yesterday about an Adam and Chris Colfer sing-off, since Adam is allegedly playing his nemesis. This caused me to YT Chris, to hear more of his voice. Here's my take, for what it's worth. Chris has this light, clear, almost soprano sounding voice. Very pretty, soothing, with nice vibrato for warmth. He sounds great on ballads. I enjoyed listening to him. Now for the "but." From what I have heard, Chris has some limitations with his voice. I tried to find examples of him singing live on TV or in concert. There's not much out there. I found "Happy Days" and "Defying Gravity" with Lea. And "I Want to Hold Your Hand" sung as a ballad. I can't find anything else sung live. Odd. I wonder why? I had read somewhere that he doesn't like to sing live. It makes me wonder if he has problems singing live as opposed to in a studio with multiple takes and electronic enhancements. From the YTs of his singing on Glee, it appears that he doesn't have a lot of flexibility or diversity in his singing. I never heard him sing with great power or oomph. He doesn't appear to have a lot of dynamic range (soft to loud, tender to hard, emotionally varied) to his voice. He may be singing a ballad or an up-tempo song, but the voice doesn't change much. The instruments may swell emotionally, but the voice doesn't do the same. Therefore, his interpretations sound rather flat and one dimensional to me. Technically, I don't hear him doing a lot with his voice. His voice is very pretty and delicate. What I don't hear is a lot of richness or depth in it. It doesn't have weight or full resonance. In other words, he sounds very pretty in what he sings, but he is not an interesting singer to me over his repertoire. He's rather bland.
It makes me doubly appreciate Adam's voice. We know that Adam can sing across genres and styles effortlessly and convincingly. He can caress a ballad or blow the roof off with power rock anthems. He can sound like he is singing an operatic aria, a feel-good dance jam, a light reggae, or a soulful R&B tune. He can interpret the hell out of a song, telling a story with a beginning, middle and end musically and emotionally. He can sing elaborate runs and extemporaneous riffs up and down his range. His voice is redolent with textures and harmonics that resonate across his range. Tho' he has a light sound to his voice, it is also rich and full of depth. His breath support lets him sing marvelous musical and lyrical phrases and hold notes in a way that make people comment on his "third lung." Adam and Chris, despite both being hailed for having an incredibly high range, are actually very different singers. Both do what they do very well. Adam just does a lot more, IMO. With much more technical acumen and versatility. All good points, and I agree that Adam is clearly the superior vocalist. But to be fair, Chris Colfer hasn't had the vocal training that Adam has, and I suspect he hasn't experimented with the range of styles that Adam has over the years. Here is what Chris said about his vocal training (from a Q&A with fans): " 13. Did you ever take dancing/singing lessons?
Jackie [14]
Between the ages of 10-13 I did take a few tap and singing lessons, and I sang and danced in High School shows. My dancing training has mostly come from Glee and my singing from countless sessions in the shower. I’ve given my finest concerts there."So, he is a largely untrained vocalist. Makes me wonder how much different or better Chris would have been if he had more training. On another topic, Cassie, how would classify Chris's voice? I've seen some people describe him as a countertenor. Do you think that's right, or is he more of a lyric tenor like Adam? Thanks!  |
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Post by cassie on Aug 23, 2013 18:36:11 GMT -5
All good points, and I agree that Adam is clearly the superior vocalist. But to be fair, Chris Colfer hasn't had the vocal training that Adam has, and I suspect he hasn't experimented with the range of styles that Adam has over the years. Here is what Chris said about his vocal training (from a Q&A with fans): " 13. Did you ever take dancing/singing lessons?
Jackie [14]
Between the ages of 10-13 I did take a few tap and singing lessons, and I sang and danced in High School shows. My dancing training has mostly come from Glee and my singing from countless sessions in the shower. I’ve given my finest concerts there."So, he is a largely untrained vocalist. Makes me wonder how much different or better Chris would have been if he had more training. On another topic, Cassie, how would classify Chris's voice? I've seen some people describe him as a countertenor. Do you think that's right, or is he more of a lyric tenor like Adam? Thanks! My point exactly. Chris Colfer is not a trained singer. It is not fair to compare Chris and Adam. No more than it is fair to compare a talented home cook to a world renowned chef. Or the star quarterback on your high school football team to Aaron Rodgers (had to look that one up. He is listed as the "best" QB in 2013). Or the guitarist in the band playing at the Holiday Inn to Brian May. I did this comparison because people were discussing whether Adam was a better singer than the Glee kids, in particular, Chris. I didn't pose the question or come up with the comparison. Would Chris be a better, more versatile singer if he had had the training and experience, the dedication, the obsession with singing that Adam had/has? Undoubtedly. Just about anyone could sound better with training. Or cook better with training. Or play better with training. How much is nature and how much is nurture? Who knows. However, I will say that there are many highly trained, highly experienced tenors who cannot do what Adam can do. Do not sound as amazing as Adam sounds. So, part of it is innate. But without the dedication and hard work, that innate talent and ability would never have manifest in Adam. That's why I sometimes get a little testy when people speak of Adam being "naturally gifted." Yes, he is, but I think it grossly underestimates the WORK he as put in to becoming the singer he is. It's also why I get a bit testy with the concept of reality shows like AI. They sell the fairy tale that ANYONE can become a star. They don't put thru some very well-trained, experienced, wonderful singers because they do not fit the Cinderella script. I honestly do not know why they put Adam through --- but thank goodness they did! As to what kind of voice Chris has, it does sound like a countertenor. But, I haven't heard his lower register. I haven't heard him sing in full voice. Many experts say that a countertenor is actually a style of singing in a strong falsetto when the singer is actually a tenor or a baritone. Even a bass. From what I have heard, Chris does sound like much of the time he is singing falsetto, which may be why he does not sing with power or depth. Why he sings mainly in a light ballad style. Please do not read this as a criticism. Singers choose the style of singing they want to perform all the time. Country, rock, folk, classical, opera, blues. They shape their voice to the style they want. Nothing wrong with that. Isn't it nice that we can have many "favorite" singers and performers depending on our moods. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 26, 2013 12:10:13 GMT -5
All good points, and I agree that Adam is clearly the superior vocalist. But to be fair, Chris Colfer hasn't had the vocal training that Adam has, and I suspect he hasn't experimented with the range of styles that Adam has over the years. Here is what Chris said about his vocal training (from a Q&A with fans): " 13. Did you ever take dancing/singing lessons?
Jackie [14]
Between the ages of 10-13 I did take a few tap and singing lessons, and I sang and danced in High School shows. My dancing training has mostly come from Glee and my singing from countless sessions in the shower. I’ve given my finest concerts there."So, he is a largely untrained vocalist. Makes me wonder how much different or better Chris would have been if he had more training. On another topic, Cassie, how would classify Chris's voice? I've seen some people describe him as a countertenor. Do you think that's right, or is he more of a lyric tenor like Adam? Thanks! My point exactly. Chris Colfer is not a trained singer. It is not fair to compare Chris and Adam. No more than it is fair to compare a talented home cook to a world renowned chef. Or the star quarterback on your high school football team to Aaron Rodgers (had to look that one up. He is listed as the "best" QB in 2013). Or the guitarist in the band playing at the Holiday Inn to Brian May. I did this comparison because people were discussing whether Adam was a better singer than the Glee kids, in particular, Chris. I didn't pose the question or come up with the comparison. Would Chris be a better, more versatile singer if he had had the training and experience, the dedication, the obsession with singing that Adam had/has? Undoubtedly. Just about anyone could sound better with training. Or cook better with training. Or play better with training. How much is nature and how much is nurture? Who knows. However, I will say that there are many highly trained, highly experienced tenors who cannot do what Adam can do. Do not sound as amazing as Adam sounds. So, part of it is innate. But without the dedication and hard work, that innate talent and ability would never have manifest in Adam. That's why I sometimes get a little testy when people speak of Adam being "naturally gifted." Yes, he is, but I think it grossly underestimates the WORK he as put in to becoming the singer he is. It's also why I get a bit testy with the concept of reality shows like AI. They sell the fairy tale that ANYONE can become a star. They don't put thru some very well-trained, experienced, wonderful singers because they do not fit the Cinderella script. I honestly do not know why they put Adam through --- but thank goodness they did! As to what kind of voice Chris has, it does sound like a countertenor. But, I haven't heard his lower register. I haven't heard him sing in full voice. Many experts say that a countertenor is actually a style of singing in a strong falsetto when the singer is actually a tenor or a baritone. Even a bass. From what I have heard, Chris does sound like much of the time he is singing falsetto, which may be why he does not sing with power or depth. Why he sings mainly in a light ballad style. Please do not read this as a criticism. Singers choose the style of singing they want to perform all the time. Country, rock, folk, classical, opera, blues. They shape their voice to the style they want. Nothing wrong with that. Isn't it nice that we can have many "favorite" singers and performers depending on our moods. I agree -- I think some folks underestimate the hard work, practice and dedication that it takes to be a really good singer (or really good at any of the arts for that matter). I've met a number of artists over the years, and they would agree that although natural ability plays a part, it requires effort to be really good. Of course, that is true of any profession -- doctors aren't born with the ability to do brain surgery, they need a lot of training and practice. It's odd that the same perceptions aren't always applied to singing. And re: Chris, I didn't take anything you wrote as criticism or negativity. I think his voice is pleasant, and it fits well with what he is asked to do on Glee, but I'm not a rabid fan. I was just pointing out that Adam has a sizeable advantage because of both his training and his approach to singing (exploring different styles, etc.). I appreciate your POV. Many thanks for responding. |
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Post by stardust on Sept 22, 2013 21:45:26 GMT -5
Looking forward to Glee! This should be very interesting!!!
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nic42
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Post by nic42 on Oct 1, 2013 16:52:49 GMT -5
Just wanted to say to you how I am enjoying this thread, because it will probably take a while before I finish it. Thank you all (especially cassie) for these discussions, teachings and examples of Adams voice and how he uses it. I am learning so very much! It is great to be able to explain why I think he is such a great singer, and why he touches me so. You haven given me more words for that. And also deepened my appreciation of Adams singing.
Slowly but surely I am reading the whole thread. I am at page 59 now, and actually dreading the moment that I have finished it. Luckily there are many videos along the way to watch, and then I go off to find other videos that are related to that one, and before you know it the evening is gone, and I have read just two or three pages.
One thing that I haven't really seen discussed yet is Adams sense of rhythm. It is a - vocal - masterclass, so that is sort of logical. But being a percussionist myself (not professionally!) I really like the way that Adam is in sync with the music. He doesn't sing a song too slow or too fast, he plays with the beat, he doesn't hurry when he sings, but relaxes into the music. And there are probably quite a few examples to be found of other great things that he does rhythmically. If I can think of something worthwhile to say about this, I wil try and find a few. Or maybe you have some suggestions for me? (I hope this isn't too much OT).
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Post by cassie on Oct 1, 2013 19:33:51 GMT -5
Just wanted to say to you how I am enjoying this thread, because it will probably take a while before I finish it. Thank you all (especially cassie) for these discussions, teachings and examples of Adams voice and how he uses it. I am learning so very much! It is great to be able to explain why I think he is such a great singer, and why he touches me so. You haven given me more words for that. And also deepened my appreciation of Adams singing. Slowly but surely I am reading the whole thread. I am at page 59 now, and actually dreading the moment that I have finished it. Luckily there are many videos along the way to watch, and then I go off to find other videos that are related to that one, and before you know it the evening is gone, and I have read just two or three pages. One thing that I haven't really seen discussed yet is Adams sense of rhythm. It is a - vocal - masterclass, so that is sort of logical. But being a percussionist myself (not professionally!) I really like the way that Adam is in sync with the music. He doesn't sing a song too slow or too fast, he plays with the beat, he doesn't hurry when he sings, but relaxes into the music. And there are probably quite a few examples to be found of other great things that he does rhythmically. If I can think of something worthwhile to say about this, I wil try and find a few. Or maybe you have some suggestions for me? (I hope this isn't too much OT). Welcome! Glad you are enjoying our little obsession with Adam's voice and his mastery of it. You are right. We haven't discussed his sense of rhythm. It's not an area that I studied much, so any comments, explanations, examples you want to post would be much appreciated. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2013 11:35:08 GMT -5
Welcome! Glad you are enjoying our little obsession with Adam's voice and his mastery of it. You are right. We haven't discussed his sense of rhythm. It's not an area that I studied much, so any comments, explanations, examples you want to post would be much appreciated. Broken Open and Naked Love's choruses are good example of him singing quite syncopated rhythms. And there's the 6/8 songs (Nirvana, CLYG, WATC) which some singers might find challenging. Oh and a present for anyone who loves amazing singing: |
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Post by nic42 on Oct 19, 2013 16:24:48 GMT -5
Broken Open and Naked Love's choruses are good example of him singing quite syncopated rhythms. And there's the 6/8 songs (Nirvana, CLYG, WATC) which some singers might find challenging. Oh and a present for anyone who loves amazing singing: Thank you for that present! It was amazing, and not only because of the singing. There were a lot of great musicians on that stage, and the joy of making music together, and admiration of the singing, made me very happy. And thanks for your suggestions, I didn't even think about the fact that 6/8 songs could be difficult to sing. But especially Broken Open has some seriously weird stuff going on in the rhythm, that goes beyond 'just' syncopation. I'll definitely need to listen to that many times again. Actually, it has been pretty difficult for me to find examples of Adam's sense of rhythm. Because it is not very interesting to say: see, there is yet another (and another) song in which his timing is impeccable. And another thing that I didn't realize is that I actually don't have the vocabulary to describe the examples that I did find. I am a percussionist, in a mainly oral tradition (Indian classical music) so I am not very familiar with describing western music, let alone formal theory and notation. But that won't keep me from trying. It could take quite some time, but I will write something! And, just in case anybody is still reading, I have a question as well. Last week I had a cold, a pretty bad one. And I almost completely lost my voice for two days. That made me think that I haven't heard of that happening to Adam (luckily!). Do singers have methods to prevent that from happening? Is he just generally a healthy person? Or is it possible to sing through a bad cold, or is that stupid thing to do? |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 19, 2013 17:09:16 GMT -5
Thank you for that present! It was amazing, and not only because of the singing. There were a lot of great musicians on that stage, and the joy of making music together, and admiration of the singing, made me very happy. Absolutely And thanks for your suggestions, I didn't even think about the fact that 6/8 songs could be difficult to sing. But especially Broken Open has some seriously weird stuff going on in the rhythm, that goes beyond 'just' syncopation. I'll definitely need to listen to that many times again. Actually, it has been pretty difficult for me to find examples of Adam's sense of rhythm. Because it is not very interesting to say: see, there is yet another (and another) song in which his timing is impeccable. And another thing that I didn't realize is that I actually don't have the vocabulary to describe the examples that I did find. I am a percussionist, in a mainly oral tradition (Indian classical music) so I am not very familiar with describing western music, let alone formal theory and notation. But that won't keep me from trying. It could take quite some time, but I will write something! Adam's "big runs" are a really obvious example that escaped me. Keeping those in time is a nightmare especially at the speed he does them sometimes. I think I said before that they sound influenced by 70s rock guitar solos to me, Jimmy Page (Led Zeppelin)'s stuff in particular. The descending run towards the end of Love Wins Over Glamour springs to mind. Weird mesh of influences but I guess that's what makes him unique as a singer! BTW I am studying Indian classical music a lot at uni. I really like it! And, just in case anybody is still reading, I have a question as well. Last week I had a cold, a pretty bad one. And I almost completely lost my voice for two days. That made me think that I haven't heard of that happening to Adam (luckily!). Do singers have methods to prevent that from happening? Is he just generally a healthy person? Or is it possible to sing through a bad cold, or is that stupid thing to do? There was that one show he had to cancel due to a cold during the Trespassing/BTIKM promo iirc. |
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nic42
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Post by nic42 on Oct 23, 2013 16:37:07 GMT -5
Adam's "big runs" are a really obvious example that escaped me. Keeping those in time is a nightmare especially at the speed he does them sometimes. I think I said before that they sound influenced by 70s rock guitar solos to me, Jimmy Page (Led Zeppelin)'s stuff in particular. The descending run towards the end of Love Wins Over Glamour springs to mind. Weird mesh of influences but I guess that's what makes him unique as a singer! For me the example that sprung in mind was Whole lotta love and the different embellishments that he makes in all the versions of that song. I guess that are what you call runs? The one that I love is the sequence starting at 6:42 in the Fantasy Springs version. He weaves his voice around the music, sometimes landing on the beat, but especially near the end also just before or a little bit after it. And when the tension has built enough, he finishes with an accentuated yeah and love right on the beat. Time to exhale. And if you just look at the rhythm (that's hard, especially in this vid, but anyway), there is the great sequence 'you need it, you need it, ... I want it' starting at 4:28, and the mirror of that starting at 5:17 'you got mine, I need yours...' And at 6:09 the quick succession of baby baby baby, that's also not easy to do at all. And the amazing thing is that at the end he says that the band didn't really rehearse that. Even though he did practice alone, that means he didn't really rehearse it with the band. Which makes it all the more impressive, since the thing that makes this rendition so special is the - how do you call it - togetherness (?) of Adams voice and the music. Did I say already I really love this song?  |
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