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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2012 14:47:21 GMT -5
You know what I am curious about, mahailia and grandduchess? This weekend I talked with my dad about the terrible incident and of course we talked some about gun control. I mentioned people who live out in the boonies and cannot rely on law enforcement.
My dad said that he didn't understand why assault-style weapons would ever be necessary -- that a heavy shotgun like a six-gauge would be a better weapon for self-defense against a human or large animal predator. I don't know much about guns ... what do you think? I really want an end to civilian access to the assault weapons, but I've traveled a lot in the West and am cognizant that it's a different world than my neighborhood street.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 17, 2012 23:37:50 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2012 0:48:25 GMT -5
You know what I am curious about, mahailia and grandduchess? This weekend I talked with my dad about the terrible incident and of course we talked some about gun control. I mentioned people who live out in the boonies and cannot rely on law enforcement. My dad said that he didn't understand why assault-style weapons would ever be necessary -- that a heavy shotgun like a six-gauge would be a better weapon for self-defense against a human or large animal predator. I don't know much about guns ... what do you think? I really want an end to civilian access to the assault weapons, but I've traveled a lot in the West and am cognizant that it's a different world than my neighborhood street. Junni, a good question. Imho assault rifles should be banned and in too few states are banned. I am not in mahailia’s position and certainly cannot answer for her but knowing the western mind set I don’t think any weapon they use is done lightly. Theirs is a unique and unenviable position. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_United_States_%28by_state%29The other loop holes usually are gun shows. They either sell under the table or above and can and do circumvent laws. There was a federal law that had a time limit en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_BanAn assault rifle is hard to shoot accurately but when you can spray the bullets accuracy becomes less important. They overshoot, do incredible damage to the target and have collateral damage. They hold a large amount of bullets in the magazine and have the ability to reload quickly. A shotgun also has a wider spread than a rifle, needs less accurate shooting than a revolver or rifle and takes time to reload. www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcassaul.html"Military-style semi-automatic firearms (so-called assault weapons) do not differ materially from non-military style semi-automatic firearms (one bullet is fired for each pull of the trigger) and are no more powerful than other semi-automatic weapons. Further, a bullet fired from a semi-automatic weapon is no more powerful than one of the same caliber fired from a corresponding non-semi-automatic handgun, rifle, or shotgun. In fact most assault weapons are less powerful than hunting rifles. For example, the AR-15 (a semi-automatic version of the U.S. military's rifle, M-16), is a .223 caliber rifle. Rifles of this caliber, when used for hunting, are generally used on small game rather than deer. A smaller caliber bullet is more likely to wound the animal (and allow it to escape and suffer a slow death) than the more powerful .24 to .30 caliber bullets normally used in deer hunting rifles (see this hunting rifle ammunition chart).
Assault weapons are not the weapons of choice among drug dealers, gang members or criminals in general. Assault weapons are used in about one-fifth of one percent (.20%) of all violent crimes and about one percent in gun crimes. It is estimated that from one to seven percent of all homicides are committed with assault weapons (rifles of any type are involved in three to four percent of all homicides). However a higher percentage are used in police homicides, roughly ten percent. (There has been no consistent trend in this rate from 1978 through 1996.) Between 1992 and 1996 less than 4% of mass murders, committed with guns, involved assault weapons. (Our deadliest mass murders have either involved arson or bombs.)
There are close to 4 million assault weapons in the U.S., which amounts to roughly 1.7% of the total gun stock.
If assault weapons are so rarely used in crime, why all the hoopla when certain military-style-semi-automatic weapons were banned by the Crime Control Act of 1994? A Washington Post editorial (September 15, 1994) summed it up best:
No one should have any illusions about what was accomplished (by the ban). Assault weapons play a part in only a small percentage of crime. The provision is mainly symbolic; its virtue will be if it turns out to be, as hoped, a stepping stone to broader gun control".
I think your Dad is very accurate in his estimation except that the people of the border of the US and Mexico are facing a new and very different threat than even 3 years ago. The drug cartels are running the expanse of open land from Mexico into the US to drop off points, they war amongst themselves and any one that crosses their paths become a target. I understand the need to protect your life and the people you love, if I agree or not that the weapon of choice is an assault rifle is really a moot point. I'm not in their site line. The example I mentioned in an earlier post about the rancher being killed? He was on an ATC checking his cattle, came over a hill and saw a group of men. Never came closer than 1200 to 1500 feet and just turned his ATC around and left. The group jumped into their jeep, followed him and shot him in the back. They used an assault rifle. Would he have been safer with an assault rifle? If ever there was question or problem that is a conundrum this is it. We live close into town, yet we frequently hear gunshots in the distance. Hunters? Some one killing a rattlesnake? We are too far away from the paths the cartel take to effect us, but you can’t help but think of it. I think there is a larger problem than assault rifles. What is equally or even more frightening to me are the regular guns people get to protect themselves. Most have no idea of the destructive power of a gun, gun etiquette or how to keep the gun safe from being stolen or used by children. They don’t respect the weapon and some see it meeting societal expectations about maleness. People see movies and it all looks so… clean. The sounds, the smell, the suffering is just not there. It is made to look cool with gangsters turning their guns on the side or ole cowboys fanning their weapons. No one can shoot accurately like that and that gun will be turned on you. How many understand the term excessive force? And how it applies to the law. My sil is a Marine and as such invited dh and I to a change of command once. While there we toured their display of history and artifacts. A display of old guns from the Civil war to World War II was displayed and you were encouraged to touch if you wished. An old revolver from World War II caught my eye and I picked it up by the butt while the Marine explained it and its history to me. As I laid it down a young man wanted to see it and picked up but…. He griped it and put his finger into the trigger guard, both the Marine and I hit the ground. This is one example of what I mean about gun etiquette. A gun is never assumed to be unloaded. Guns laws need to cover not only if someone has a criminal background but mandatory lessons in how to use and keep the gun safely. That along with physiological testing! Never in our lifetime will we be able to eliminate guns but I fully believe the steps we take now may in the future make this discussion unnecessary. I could go on and on! I also think that gun laws cover only a part of the problem. Mental health laws, how we deal with mental illness and who has the right to request it and how the mental health facility can order treatment is another integral part. It’s an onion with many layers. You know, juniemoon, I get nervous writing to you don’t you. Please don’t grade me?
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mahailia
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Post by mahailia on Dec 18, 2012 9:02:59 GMT -5
water moccasins, not out here, but yes, bears are coming up from Mexico because of the drought, I haven't seen any yet, but they have been seen in our area. Ferral hogs can weigh up to 350 lbs. and can kill a horse. A pack of javelina can be viscious, and there are no trees around here to climb up to get away from them. Add to that rabid skunks. Many of you ask why I would own a gun, knowing that it can kill a person. We don't own guns so that we can kill any persons. I shoot targets and beer cans, and an occassional rattlesnake. My husband shoots deer, 1 per year according to our hunting liscense, and we process it and eat it. Course there aren't many deer out here since the drought has been going on for the past 7 years. We have gone without deer meat for the past 4 years. A rabid skunk climbed over our rock fence and attacked my dog and her 6 two week old puppies. My son got me out of bed, I grabbed a pistol, and had to shoot 3 times to kill the skunk. It was dark, and the skunk was moving around, and I am not that good with a pistol. All but 2 of the puppies were killed, and we had to pen up the mother for 3 weeks to make sure she didn't have rabies. My dh and his best friend, both vets, slept through the whole thing. This all occurred 12 yards from my back door. Welcome to my world. |
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Post by taumbu on Dec 18, 2012 10:13:54 GMT -5
Your welcome BB. And I didn't even mention: Rattlesnakes/ Water Moccasins Wild pigs javelina predators after your stock Mountain lions and bears oh my water moccasins, not out here, but yes, bears are coming up from Mexico because of the drought, I haven't seen any yet, but they have been seen in our area. Ferral hogs can weigh up to 350 lbs. and can kill a horse. A pack of javelina can be viscious, and there are no trees around here to climb up to get away from them. Add to that rabid skunks. Many of you ask why I would own a gun, knowing that it can kill a person. We don't own guns so that we can kill any persons. I shoot targets and beer cans, and an occassional rattlesnake. My husband shoots deer, 1 per year according to our hunting liscense, and we process it and eat it. Course there aren't many deer out here since the drought has been going on for the past 7 years. We have gone without deer meat for the past 4 years. A rabid skunk climbed over our rock fence and attacked my dog and her 6 two week old puppies. My son got me out of bed, I grabbed a pistol, and had to shoot 3 times to kill the skunk. It was dark, and the skunk was moving around, and I am not that good with a pistol. All but 2 of the puppies were killed, and we had to pen up the mother for 3 weeks to make sure she didn't have rabies. My dh and his best friend, both vets, slept through the whole thing. This all occurred 12 yards from my back door. Welcome to my world.
Ok. But why an assault weapon? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2012 11:40:40 GMT -5
grandduchess, do I come off that way? Like I would grade people? :( I hope not. Thank you for your detailed response, it was great! I am a Texan, but a city girl in one of the most liberal cities in the country. I hear all sides and I am just trying to learn. You cited one of the main reasons I don't have a gun myself. I know I'm not capable of using it correctly. Anybody remember Barney Fife on Andy Griffith and his one bullet? That would be me. I do think people have fantasies about self-defense at times that very few who do not have police or military training would be able to carry out. To me a gun would just be a valuable target for a burglar, an accident waiting to happen, and a bad thing to have around in moments of despair. adamuse, I won't play dueling articles. That article you posted was great, very informative. I read many things that friends and family bring to my attention -- everything from Reason to Mother Jones, Commentary to the Atlantic, everything in between. That's how I learn. I thought the guy's point was well-taken that we all tend to fall back on our comfortable tropes when something like this happens. I'm thankful for this thread. I've never joined in on this thread before, but I want to learn some things. I think there is middle ground for us all to stand on -- at least I hope so. All too often the middle ground is cut away and then people just retreat to their defensive positions and no progress is possible. There was an excellent article in the Wall Street Journal this morning that I wanted to share. It is called "Guns, Mental Illness, and Newtown": online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323723104578185271857424036.htmlThis story is really interesting. It addresses the fact that homicide has fallen by 50% in the US since 1980, with a corresponding drop in gun homicides. But random mass shootings have increased dramatically -- from 18 in the 1980s to 87 in the 2000s. He goes on to talk about the fueling of mad obsessions by the 24-hour news cycle and the deinstitutionalizing of the mentally ill.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2012 12:30:13 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2012 12:54:58 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2012 13:16:00 GMT -5
You're not so bad yourself, lady!  ahh... Thank You! |
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Post by rabbitrabbit on Dec 18, 2012 13:16:09 GMT -5
When I used to teach high school, one of the first lessons I taught students about online research was to always consider the source, and how that shaped the argument, choice of selective statistics, etc. The Wall street journal article above is written by Dave Kopel, from wiki: "Kopel opposes gun control and is a benefactor member of the National Rifle Association. ..In 2003, Kopel wrote in National Review "Simply put, if not for gun control, Hitler would not have been able to murder 21 million people." He is also a research director of a conservative think tank, the Independence Institute, and a policy analyst at a libertarian think tank, Cato (I'm mostly familiar with their active denials of climate change and global warming). Grandduchesses extensive quote about assault weapons comes from guncite.com which while presenting lots of articles and information, seems to be primarily concerned with defense of the second Amendment and seems to do a lot of quoting of Dave Kopel above -- such as the section about assault weapons quoted here (although they also reference Reason,  ) Just food for thought and something to keep in mind when reading about these issues. ETA: just as a footnote, here's a short vid of Piers Morgan on CNN getting into it with Dave Kopel after the Aurora shooting about 'when the best time to debate gun control is' www.youtube.com/watch?v=XumMF-_2kIgIncidentally I agree with Piers here that the best time was 'yesterday'. |
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