|
|
Post by rihannsu on Apr 10, 2016 7:26:24 GMT -5
Sigh. LaPorsha just sounds ignorant to me. For good and for ill, our beliefs and perspectives are shaped by how we are raised and what we are taught as children. I don't know about the rest of you, but I was told that homosexuality was a choice, and an amoral one at that. Just like having sex outside of marriage was an immoral choice. And adultery. All sins. In my sheltered, mid-America, small-town world, I didn't know anyone who was gay. Well, I am sure I did, but didn't know they were gay. I accepted what I was told. I didn't know any better. It was only after I was an adult, living in a cosmopolitan environment, meeting, working with, and being friends with all kinds of people.... including those who were gay and lesbian ---- that I was able to question my earlier teachings (conditionings), and recognize those filled with ignorance, dogma and prejudice. Perhaps I was influenced by my dear, sweet, smart grandmother, who was incredibly, profoundly racist. I loved her dearly, but even as a child, I could recognize how flawed, hateful, and hurtful her beliefs were when it came to what she, at her most gracious and polite, referred to as "nigras." I, sadly, know too many people who still firmly believe the crap they have been told about people who are LGBT. Good, loving, caring, church-going Christian folks who believe they are speaking God's will. People who say "Some of my best friends are gay" yet still staunchly believe their friends are choosing to be gay, they are sinning, and they are in some way, psychologically unhealthy and need help to "find the light." Sigh. We still have a long way to go. Im.sorry but who's being ignorant now. Not all Christians see Lgbt in that way. Seems your stereotyping Christians. I'm sorry but you can't speak for me. Seems your generalizing Christians as a certain type. How is that any different to.what ppl do with Lgbts? Not trying to.start anything. But just be careful. Its a fine line. Nowhere did Cassie say anything about ALL christians. She was specifically speaking about the experience of growing up in the Southern United States which I'm sorry is not something of which you have any experience. I too grew up in the South of the US and Cassie speaks to the same experience I have had. We know well it is not ALL christians but unfortunately it is a large segment of them. Also the word ignorant means lacking in knowledge or information. It is not the same as saying stupid. If a person is ignorant on a subject it simply means that they haven't learned yet, not that they can't learn. There are very many subjects that I consider myself ignorant about because I haven't studied them. |
|
|
|
Post by Jablea on Apr 10, 2016 9:26:30 GMT -5
2 cents. Adam has refered to "lifestyle" himself in a radio interview I think. Lifestyle can refer to something other than being gay. For example I have a monogomous lifestyle. Adam has said he doesn't agree, at least for him, with the promiscuity rampant in the gay community. Refer to Michael Sarver and how Adam and he learned about each other. Adam was ignorant about Michael's upbringing. Opposing something and beating people over the head with "you shoulds" often makes them dig in their feet. See foreign policy.  |
|
|
|
Post by Jablea on Apr 10, 2016 9:30:18 GMT -5
I'm also the mother of a gay son, but my heart tells me to give LP a break for now. Given her relatively young age and confined background, I can't really take offense yet at her misinformed "life style" remarks. Instead, I try to see the positive in words like "respect" and "live and let live". That's a start. Craazyforadam, I just read your post and I came back to add that I couldn't agree more with your assessment of "tolerance": "Tolerance is the first step to allowing communication and interaction. If a certain behavior or understanding is lacking, as seems in this case, it is important to first have respectful dialogue and education, otherwise nothing will go forward, ever." You have a more generous spirit than me While I've no particular wish to see La' Porscha pilloried for what she said (and I don't think that's what's happening here), I do find her comments offensive and think that it's important to have the dialogue/education you highlight sooner rather than later - sadly, her views were widely disseminated and got a lot of positive reaction from what I can see. Challenging the basis of what she said is an important first step IMHO. Where have you seen her views get positive reaction? Of course I only haunt here and MJs. Was it someplace else? |
|
|
|
Post by csquared on Apr 10, 2016 10:18:38 GMT -5
2 cents. Adam has refered to "lifestyle" himself in a radio interview I think. Lifestyle can refer to something other than being gay. For example I have a monogomous lifestyle. Adam has said he doesn't agree, at least for him, with the promiscuity rampant in the gay community. Refer to Michael Sarver and how Adam and he learned about each other. Adam was ignorant about Michael's upbringing. Opposing something and beating people over the head with "you shoulds" often makes them dig in their feet. See foreign policy. I don't recall Adam using "lifestyle," but he often uses "sexual preference," which surprises me a bit. I think part of the use of these words (on anyone's part) is habit... that's what everyone, gay and straight, has seen used so that's what sticks in one's vocabulary. Hopefully that will change. IMO the best response to someone who thinks it's a "choice" is, "So, when did you chose to be straight?" I got into it with our neighbor last week. He's from NC, and said that he was all in favor of gay rights etc., that one of his roommates in college was trans, but that "just for the sake of argument," maybe things were moving too fast and that's why there is now "pushback" in the form of these stupid new laws. I said too bad, it's time for everyone to have equal rights, why should people have to wait for their rights just to avoid pushback. Grrr. |
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Location:
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 11:35:51 GMT -5
In the context of THIS issue, "acceptance," to me, connotes respect, and (most importantly) equality. "Tolerance," to me, connotes condescension and, thus, inequality.
And "I don't agree with homosexuality"? Nonsensical, really just a dodge. Like saying, "I don't agree with . . . blue." I think this quote from MLK relates to how some people feel about the concept of tolerance vs. acceptance: "Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will." I wholeheartedly agree with the above. In response to others who take issue with my saying 'fuck tolerance'. - Sure, duh, tolerance is better than outright discrimination. But, yes, I still say fuck it. Because it is FAR from the goal of a loving, human society. It is a MINIMAL first step. Not good enough. tol·er·ate
ˈtäləˌrāt verb allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference."a regime unwilling to tolerate dissent" synonyms: allow, permit, condone, accept, swallow, countenance; More accept or endure (someone or something unpleasant or disliked) with forbearance."how was it that she could tolerate such noise?" synonyms: endure, put up with, bear, take, stand, support, stomach, deal with; abide"he couldn't tolerate her mood swings any longer" be capable of continued subjection to (a drug, toxin, or environmental condition) without adverse reaction.Yeah. I TOLERATE something I have no respect for and wish wasn't so - so I grudgingly leave it alone. Tolerance is FAR from support. |
|
|
|
Post by Jablea on Apr 10, 2016 12:04:04 GMT -5
In the context of THIS issue, "acceptance," to me, connotes respect, and (most importantly) equality. "Tolerance," to me, connotes condescension and, thus, inequality.
And "I don't agree with homosexuality"? Nonsensical, really just a dodge. Like saying, "I don't agree with . . . blue." I think this quote from MLK relates to how some people feel about the concept of tolerance vs. acceptance: "Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will." I wholeheartedly agree with the above. In response to others who take issue with my saying 'fuck tolerance'. - Sure, duh, tolerance is better than outright discrimination. But, yes, I still say fuck it. Because it is FAR from the goal of a loving, human society. It is a MINIMAL first step. Not good enough. tol·er·ate
ˈtäləˌrāt verb allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference."a regime unwilling to tolerate dissent" synonyms: allow, permit, condone, accept, swallow, countenance; More accept or endure (someone or something unpleasant or disliked) with forbearance."how was it that she could tolerate such noise?" synonyms: endure, put up with, bear, take, stand, support, stomach, deal with; abide"he couldn't tolerate her mood swings any longer" be capable of continued subjection to (a drug, toxin, or environmental condition) without adverse reaction.Yeah. I TOLERATE something I have no respect for and wish wasn't so - so I grudgingly leave it alone. Tolerance is FAR from support. Well then I'd say there's a ton of people in America who are on the toleration side because they do not agree, feel like they are enduring, and want to stick their head in the sand. I think you are tilting at windmills and while I tolerate your foolhardishness I'm not in support of it. lol I'm in a state that has a 70% chance of passing the same transgender bathroom bill as NC next year and won't even hold legislative hearings on adding the words to add sexual orientation to anti-discrimination causes. It's not stopping me from going to a big ol' gay wedding this fall (cousin's). |
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Location:
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 12:52:57 GMT -5
I wholeheartedly agree with the above. In response to others who take issue with my saying 'fuck tolerance'. - Sure, duh, tolerance is better than outright discrimination. But, yes, I still say fuck it. Because it is FAR from the goal of a loving, human society. It is a MINIMAL first step. Not good enough. tol·er·ate
ˈtäləˌrāt verb allow the existence, occurrence, or practice of (something that one does not necessarily like or agree with) without interference."a regime unwilling to tolerate dissent" synonyms: allow, permit, condone, accept, swallow, countenance; More accept or endure (someone or something unpleasant or disliked) with forbearance."how was it that she could tolerate such noise?" synonyms: endure, put up with, bear, take, stand, support, stomach, deal with; abide"he couldn't tolerate her mood swings any longer" be capable of continued subjection to (a drug, toxin, or environmental condition) without adverse reaction.Yeah. I TOLERATE something I have no respect for and wish wasn't so - so I grudgingly leave it alone. Tolerance is FAR from support. Well then I'd say there's a ton of people in America who are on the toleration side because they do not agree, feel like they are enduring, and want to stick their head in the sand. I think you are tilting at windmills and while I tolerate your foolhardishness I'm not in support of it. lol I'm in a state that has a 70% chance of passing the same transgender bathroom bill as NC next year and won't even hold legislative hearings on adding the words to add sexual orientation to anti-discrimination causes. It's not stopping me from going to a big ol' gay wedding this fall (cousin's). Tilting at windmills? Really? Foolhardiness? Really? I guess I'm a "radical". That's a shame, especially on these boards. |
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Location:
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2016 19:39:43 GMT -5
Yes, a "radical" - or "an extremist."
"So, the question is not whether we will be extremists, but what kind of extremists we will be. Will we be extremists for love or extremists for hate? Will we be extremists for the preservation of injustice or for the extension of justice?" - MLK (again)
When the law is perverted to protect discrimination and not fhe minorities being discriminated against, I think it is the "extremists for love" who stand up and fight against these laws (Bruuuuce!) And these laws will be fought in every state in which they raise their ugly heads, I'm sure. I mean, equality under the law is the issue MLK and others died fighting for - it's the same issue at stake here, IMO - equality under the law. MLK or Harvey MiLK weren't tilting at windmills, I don't think. I think they were advancing our country and bringing it closer to its highest ideals.
There will be people who will put themselves on the frontline against these laws, some of whom, I bet, even post and lurk here. I don't think they're foolhardy - to me, they are heroes and I'm thankful to them.
(I hope I am not misconstruing anyone's words - not my intent. My intent is just to express my feeling that these "backlash" laws are freaking me out, enraging me, depressing me. I feel some despair, frankly - and I am pinning my hopes on the "extremists for love!")
|
|
|
|
Post by Jablea on Apr 11, 2016 0:56:35 GMT -5
I started my reply several times and had to erase. It's hard to do a discussion when every word choice can be taken the wrong way. It closes the conversation which is the same thing I'm complaining about when one person is villified for one word said.
But I did find a video that shows my point of view, I think. Listen to the 1st 30 seconds.
|
|
Deleted
Posts: 0
Location:
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2016 6:20:55 GMT -5
I watched it - Adam is SOO lovely.
For me, it is not a matter of whether or not La Porsha is used to fame or TV, ready for an interview, polished or not, if that is what you mean. Rather, for me, it's a matter of does she support a law fior discrimination or not? Does she support equality or not?
I think these laws are a very big, very bad deal.
If what you mean is the "gist" is more important than particular words, I 100% agree with you, but, I fear, the "gist"'of La Porsha's words suggested to me the idea that she, like others behind this law, think that because of their beliefs they get some sort of privileged "say" over others' rights.. Which is wrong, IMO, no matter how nicely They say it.
IF La Porsha doesn't think that, great, I hope she clarifies. But, for me, the time is here for nothing but full-throated condemnation of these backlash laws, i.e. Bruce Springsteen, PayPal, and others.
As for our words here, I understand "fuck tolerance" completely. For example, whether La Porsha (or other people) is "nice" to or "tolerant" of gay people or not isn't very important next to the issue of equality.
As for our words here, I thought the question asking if we were at a HeWhoCannot amed rally was very provocative (not that I don't often love Craazy's posts - I do) because obviously Books was taking a position completely on the side of an oppressed minority, not against. I mainly posted in order to respond to what I thought was the real and valid gist of "fuck tolerance," which King too had written about.
Jablea, Craazy, Books, I respect and appreciatie all of you.
|
|
