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mszue
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The Moon Garden Lounge Aug 31, 2012 23:51:17 GMT -5

Quote

Post by mszue on Aug 31, 2012 23:51:17 GMT -5

Long assed post coming here....I copied and pasted Winter's post and tried to make it clear when I was replying...I hope it isn't confusing...

eta...all my lines and bolds and italics disappeared....yikes...I will see if I can replicate the lines at least...
Winter:
I wanted to get back to a garden-topic raised earlier when MsZue was talking about presentation, etc.

Here's what I've pondered for a while.

It seems generally assumed that when a person dresses or appears in a manner somehow outside the norm for the workplace or community or society, that there is always extra attention.

What kind of attention depends on what kind of deviation - like an aluminum foil hat (worn unironically) along with disheveled or 'non-artsy' odd clothes may signal a mental health issue. But if we put that category aside (along say gender nonconformity, religious categories, etc) and just look at people who dress/appear differently based on aesthetic choices, I have a question.

It is generally assumed (is it?) that these people are seeking or at least indifferent to drawing attention - not necessarily as 'attention seekers' but more in the sense that they are following a path that includes a distinct break from the mainstream 'I know I'm different, an individualist and I don't care if that draws your attention, even disapproval'.
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That is an interesting point except I THINK you are starting from a somewhat false premise...for the most part. People make their clothing/hair/makeup choices to make 'claims' regarding who they want to be seen as being. Our choices are not made to look different or individualistic, per se, but we dress in the way we think will PERSUADE others that we are indeed, different and separate individuals from the people around us. If you are to see these people among people the feel they are like, they will not stand out at all....everyone will be so eccentric that their eccentricity becomes the norm.

My point is...WE DRESS TO SHOW PEOPLE WHO WE WANT THEM TO THINK WE ARE...not to simply 'stand out'. We may well stand out in the process, and if the people we are standing with are also people we do not particularly wish to see as...then yes, the purpose becomes in part, to stand out.

We know this because of the work we often go to make sure we are dressed appropriately....think of the times we females especially, check with others re the best clothing choice if we are a little unsure about the dress code. We know this because where it is easy to 'make a mistake' ... such as company parties...the dress code is explicitely stated. We know this when we think of how we feel or felt when turning up at a Barbecue dressed for a cocktail party, and we know this as we know you do not dress the same way for a wedding and a funeral....even the most INDIVIDUAL of us knows better than to do that.....
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In the case of someone like Adam, he has said happily that even before Idol he dressed to draw attention - he likes for people to take note. He clearly considers what he wears (and his hair and make up) a vital form of expression for himself.

In this case, Adam is just a little more self-aware than many of us...and a big part of who he is ... is a peacock....he loves the aesthetics of fashion and beauty. I was very much like that myself...in my younger days...hell...if I weren't my age and overweight now...I would still be a peacock. I love dressing and making up to look as fashionable as humanly possible. But I am also aware that a part of the reason I enjoy that is the attention and admiration I receiv[ed] for my appearance...and so I know I now need to cool it or I will just be ridiculed instead of admired....sigh...tough. In my youth, I had a pretty decent figure and was very good at dressing to look good...but my youngest sister had a kick-ass body. I often complained to her and my family that it was totally unfair that she had that body and chose to waste it living in t-shirts and jeans, while I had all this chutzpah and fashion pizazz but used on a much less stellar body. It was all in fun...but ..:-)
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Finally we get to my question - what about people (working or living in a non-artsy world or profession) who would like to make aesthetic choices like: clothing that's just a bit different - maybe dated without being retro, or romantic, or punk, or early aviator , whatever); or a streak of magenta in their hair or braided crystals; or a tribal tattoo on the face --- BUT they don't follow their impulses because they don't want to be singled out for staring/attention/'what is that outfit saying?' They like a low profile and they don't want people to place them in the box of assumptions: 'oh, you must be telling me you are an eccentric or rebel or failed artist or...' )
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Now you are asking about the concepts I have written of often...here and in another place on this forum. Emotional labour is the work done by employees, that has as its purpose, the evoking of specific emotions/feelings in clients/others. That is, the evoking of pleasure, satisfaction in customers. Sometimes it is phrased as 'selling your personality' and it is generally theorized as detrimental to the employee. A close concept is called Aesthetic labour...and that is the selling not of personality but of appearance and social capital. What that means, is purposefully looking and behaving a particular way to fit in and to 'sell' your services or products.

Like it or not, others do not have time to get to know us well enough when all they are doing is looking for someone to type our manuscript or cook our hamburger...we do not all live in villages where we know each person and where they come from. So we have to make hasty judgements and generalizations re their trustability, reliability, good will. If every tv show and each personal experience we have of someone with multiple tattoos and piercings, and with dirty jeans falling off their butts, is a negative one...then when we encounter another person fitting this description we will automatically determine that they are likely similar to the other people we have seen with this appearance, and we will treat them accordingly.

Our appearance is full of 'sign vehicles' such as hair, clothing, vehicle, gestures, gait...etc...and part of being an effective communicator is to recognize the message fielded by each of these vehicles and assure that the message you are sending out is the one you want to be perceived. That is why there are so many 'dress for success' books and television shows about.
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Why is there no room for more expressive diversity in appearance in society? An attitude that would have people just shrugging and moving on or not even caring enough to shrug? Is such a world possible?

And while most everyone would agree employers have right to have some dress code policies - no nudity, no halloween masks, or clown outfits for your surgeon for instance - how did we get to the very narrow, random definition of business dress? (Why is a tie a necessary thing? lol)
Shouldn't I trust my doctor, lawyer, teacher, minister, if s/he has a green mohawk or a 3 piece vintage suit? But society has taught me to stop and question that - and I prob would. I don't think I would decide not to be a client/patient but I would look quite a bit closer instead of assuming all was well as I might with a traditionally dressed, esp 'tastefully conservative' dressed individual. oh dear.

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There actually is quite a bit of leeway in what is permissible today...much more than there used to be. It is not about SHOULD we trust a doctor in a green mohawk...but WOULD we! The meaning of the sign-vehicles of appearance are SOCIALLY CONSTRUCTED...that is, we as a society gradually and cooperatively assign a certain meaning to specific signifiers through the above described operations of generalization. As I said before, we often only have appearances to guide us...when that scary looking big leather-clad, bearded, weaving agressive man is heading towards us in a dark alley...we make some very hasty judgements and make a beeline for the other side of the road...or at the very least, avoid eye contact and quickly avoid drawing attention.

When people do not seem to recognize how to act and present themself appropriately, we often label them MENTALLY ILL. One of the commonly accepted first signs of improvement in a depressed person, is a renewed concern for grooming and appearance. It is not phony to care how we appear....it is NATURAL.
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I myself am in the category of someone who already skirts ( ) the mainstream by dressing a bit bohemian - but nothing unusual - my skirts are longer, pants wider, colourful blouses instead of Donna Karan, boots instead of heels. Still a couple of friends have mentioned I might get more consulting assignments if I 'bizzed' it up more. But I dream of rich textiles and more gem tone colors and, yes, braiding beads in my hair - maybe wear the paste on spiral swarovski cyrstal 'tattoo' a friend gave me. (And dressing up to go out is a different thing - this is more of how I would like to let more inner self express itself day to day)
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But you see...you are expressing yourself...you are attracted to the more colourful styles because that is how you like to see yourself and how you want others to see you...this is great...you know what you are doing and it is absolutely fine. But there is always a price to be paid...we can never have our cake and eat it too.....

The literature on Emotional and Aesthetic labour argues that there is a price to be paid for dressing/acting in a way that does not feel authentic...that price may be primarily depression or alienation. If you are choosing to dress in the way that makes you feel more 'authentic' or 'real' that is great...but it may mean the price is monetary instead of emotional.... If you want to fit in...you have to fit in. If you would prefer feeling self-fulfilled...then you don't worry so much about fitting in....simple actually. The problem comes when people feel like the 'rules' should differ or be abandoned. But then you have to follow the old adage of BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU ASK FOR....as you still need to be able to effectively recognize others too...it is a two way street.
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now I know some of you live in more liberal, artistic communities but in most 9-5 urban or suburban U.S. centers I visit for business - there's not much variation from traditional business wear or even the casual friday or button down/khaki/jeans combo and tshirt/jeans or shorts weekend wear.

So if any of that made sense , I'd be interested in hearing msZue's and others thoughts on what it all means.
Maybe I should think harder about whether the unwanted attention would balance out with pleasure in increased expression - but it's not such an easy choice when staring and questions would make me uncomfortable.
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As I said earlier...you just need to decide which is more important to you...blending and fitting in [and there are lots of rewards and good things to this] or standing out and expressing yourself......

Most people find ways to fit in at work [which is why the research in this area focuses on people at work] and they let their inner rascal out...if they have one...on their 'own time'...

When it comes to things like hair/tattoos’/piercings....often people remove piercings at work...cover tattoos’/have the tattoos in private places....undercut and or aggressively color underneath hair that can be covered up for work. There are many ways to camouflage aggressive fashion choices....

Last Edit: Aug 31, 2012 23:57:04 GMT -5 by mszue

"In the response of the audience, that is where the power of performance lives".

winter
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The Moon Garden Lounge Sept 1, 2012 4:27:04 GMT -5

Quote

Post by winter on Sept 1, 2012 4:27:04 GMT -5

mszue - thank you so much for your thoughtful response! i nodded at most of what you said, but was wondering about one thing (and I promise to stop here and not beat this to death :))

. Much of what you discussed was the balancing of interests or costs to the individual, emphasizing the individual's responsibility to know what signals she is sending out w/appearance and be conscious of the price paid for deviating from certain norms.

If you want to fit in...you have to fit in. If you would prefer feeling self-fulfilled...then you don't worry so much about fitting in....simple actually. The problem comes when people feel like the 'rules' should differ or be abandoned. But then you have to follow the old adage of BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU ASK FOR....as you still need to be able to effectively recognize others too...it is a two way street

But when we take off our 'individual' hat (in a manner of speaking) and put on our member of community hat, don't we have some responsibility to consider the cost to society of not questioning some of our assumptions based on appearance?

Just to clarify, I'll use more extreme examples. You mentioned what I would think of as the human need to assess possible threat and appearance being key to that, how the leather clad guy in the alley prompts us to cross to the other side of the street, but what if it's skin color that prompts us to cross? Two men, dressed the same but we only cross the street if the man is dark skinned or younger and more powerful looking rather than older. To take it further, a young white man in low riding jeans and gangsta wear, maybe we don't cross, seeing him as the neighbor kid, but same look on a young black man and we do. If a mature black or latino person is dressed in a conservative suit instead of more 'ethnic' or even just work clothes - we are more comfortable with that, have more confidence in his/her 'safeness' and willingness to assist - and while we are likely to also feel more confidence in a white person more professionally dressed - the difference it makes for non whites is much greater - where manner of dress can reduce concerns or lack of confidence sparked by (hopefully unconscious) assumptions about race or ethnicity. Then, if people take those subjective reactions into the workplace or communal space (shops, hospitals, etc). the effect is more subtle but still has an impact on how people are treated. (Reminds me a bit of the movie 'Crash' where well-meaning people contribute to division and tragedy by operating from assumptions generated by stereotypes.)

What if there is an instance where National Glampoon (hi!) is treated with less respect when he dresses more andro? He can adjust his appearance depending on his goals, but can't I also - as a community member, customer, professional, whatever has the most influence - demand of those interacting with him that they examine their assumptions/prejudices and adjust reactions accordingly?

Also, women have always been told they bear a definite responsibility to avoid unwanted attention and even violence through their appearance choices. That they will (and it's true) will often improve career opportunities by modeling male emotional and interactive patterns.
But historically, women have increasingly rejected some of the rigid rules of dress and manner as part of the women's right movement. I think you've commented that community standards regarding appearance for both men and women have eased or adapted somewhat over the years.

Thus, clearly as a community we do sometimes consciously re-examine, question the subjective meaning we attach to some signifiers, yes?

So referring back to your quote I copied above - maybe there are times when the rules SHOULD differ or be at least questioned if not abandoned? So again, shouldn't we - in the interest of more equitable society and valuing of diversity - encourage open discussion and questioning of our societal assumptions and therefore standards?

Adam's nail polish at rehearsal or in auditions may come with a cost to him, but the producer rejecting him or undermining his career based on that also costs us as a society - in limiting the rewards gained by being an inclusive group and in potentially depriving the community of the joy of Adam's talent.

To take it down a much different, less charged but maybe more common path, I know there are teachers here and I wonder how they handle appearance/projection of self issues - esp with teens who like to push boundaries or maybe hide behind nondescript wear to blend for safety. While I've been known to have a quiet talk with the 'scary' goth girl along the lines mszue laid out about being aware of the response she provoked and costs she might bear for the particular self expression, I also make a point of casually mentioning to other teachers what I see - a bright, kind girl behind those piercings and spikes. For myself, I've gotten the same talk from a close male friend about some young men who come across as aggressive, and with whom I automatically become stricter and less open and encouraging. As a woman and an individual who has had some unfortunate experiences, my trip wire for what I perceive to be 'rough' men is set high - and physical size, voice, how well spoken - are all factors for me.

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So that was much longer than I meant it to be and I promise to stop but as you can see this is something I wrestle with - esp in questioning my reactions to others. At the end of the day, I worry knowing I sometimes let shallow prejudice lead me to add to someone's burden but just hope that I am forgiven my unintentional trespasses :-/ and remind myself to forgive accordingly.

Since I became an Adam fan, this long-time interest of in how people interact with world has become even stronger. And I've been fascinated by the surge of positive response from women - esp women well over 30 to Adam's own unconventional style/appearance choices and his own happy embrace of the peacock

- it seems to have sparked a desire to dip into their own make up/dress up boxes. Like we suddenly became aware of a pleasure or means of expression we had given up long ago as the price of admission to, I don't know, the mainstream? I find myself newly weighing choices at the MAC store and vintage shops - wanting to model Adam's fun, distinctive style but translate rather than mimic so that I project a similar sense of fun, fashion aware individualism without signalling a desire to appear younger or more hip than I am. I'm ok w/my age and level of 'hipness'

(I guess I'm all over the place with this but it is a fascinating subject and I thank you mszue for your insight and others for your contributions!)

Last Edit: Sept 1, 2012 5:05:30 GMT -5 by winter

mszue
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Posts: 5,012
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The Moon Garden Lounge Sept 1, 2012 12:23:55 GMT -5

Quote

Post by mszue on Sept 1, 2012 12:23:55 GMT -5

Sept 1, 2012 4:27:04 GMT -5 @winter said:

mszue - thank you so much for your thoughtful response! i nodded at most of what you said, but was wondering about one thing (and I promise to stop here and not beat this to death :))

. Much of what you discussed was the balancing of interests or costs to the individual, emphasizing the individual's responsibility to know what signals she is sending out w/appearance and be conscious of the price paid for deviating from certain norms.

If you want to fit in...you have to fit in. If you would prefer feeling self-fulfilled...then you don't worry so much about fitting in....simple actually. The problem comes when people feel like the 'rules' should differ or be abandoned. But then you have to follow the old adage of BE CAREFUL WHAT YOU ASK FOR....as you still need to be able to effectively recognize others too...it is a two way street

But when we take off our 'individual' hat (in a manner of speaking) and put on our member of community hat, don't we have some responsibility to consider the cost to society of not questioning some of our assumptions based on appearance?

Just to clarify, I'll use more extreme examples. You mentioned what I would think of as the human need to assess possible threat and appearance being key to that, how the leather clad guy in the alley prompts us to cross to the other side of the street, but what if it's skin color that prompts us to cross? Two men, dressed the same but we only cross the street if the man is dark skinned or younger and more powerful looking rather than older. To take it further, a young white man in low riding jeans and gangsta wear, maybe we don't cross, seeing him as the neighbor kid, but same look on a young black man and we do. If a mature black or latino person is dressed in a conservative suit instead of more 'ethnic' or even just work clothes - we are more comfortable with that, have more confidence in his/her 'safeness' and willingness to assist - and while we are likely to also feel more confidence in a white person more professionally dressed - the difference it makes for non whites is much greater - where manner of dress can reduce concerns or lack of confidence sparked by (hopefully unconscious) assumptions about race or ethnicity. Then, if people take those subjective reactions into the workplace or communal space (shops, hospitals, etc). the effect is more subtle but still has an impact on how people are treated. (Reminds me a bit of the movie 'Crash' where well-meaning people contribute to division and tragedy by operating from assumptions generated by stereotypes.)

You are absolutely right...of course. but there are two glaring differences/concepts here that do not truly fit.

First...the theoretical concepts I am talking of are purely DESCRIPTIVE, not NORMATIVE! I do not say it is ETHICAL or RIGHT to judge people by their appearance, merely that we do and we do it for practical reasons. In my particular studies using emotional and aesthetic labour, the issue is not about whether it is right or fair to assess people by their appearance, but what the repercussions are for the people who feel they must adjust their appearances....is there psychological damage to people doing this on a daily basis? What circumstances seem more difficult or rewarding than others? What is there about the experience that makes it a negative or a positive one? The discussion about whether it is ethical or not is a completely different one...albeit a very interesting and important one.

Secondly...and I think more importantly for your concerns...my references were all to aspects of appearance that are mutable. One cannot alter one's colour/race/ethnicity and therefore the issue is completely different. Now you are talking clear ethics/morals. Of course it is wrong in every way to judge a person on simply the color of their skin or their religion. The reasons this judging is done are the same as those regarding clothing...but far less defensible!! Note also that in places where clothing is completely mandated and almost impossible to control [such as in some very restricted religions] then the cues are much more subtle...and ones that outsiders likely cannot discern at all. However, in those societies, adherence to those clothing standards become even more critical and challenging them can be life threatening. These standards tend to be more dangerous for women to transgress...but not necessarily stricter...think of hutterite garb...single men cannot have a beard...married men must... Some of the clothing restrictions are not visible as in the infamous undergarments worn by devout LDS adherents. I remember the controversy when RC nuns moved the head coverings back to expose the front couple of inches of their hair...I had to secretly work with a nun to help her figure out what to do with that couple of inches as she had no clue and she was really excited but nervous about the whole change. We ended up perming it...:-)

[/quote]What if there is an instance where National Glampoon (hi!) is treated with less respect when he dresses more andro? He can adjust his appearance depending on his goals, but can't I also - as a community member, customer, professional, whatever has the most influence - demand of those interacting with him that they examine their assumptions/prejudices and adjust reactions accordingly?

This of course is another issue again...an immutable condition but with mutable appearance options....so he cannot 'change' his sexuality [if indeed that is the issue] but he can choose to accentuate it or not....here is the choice. What is wrong is that there is a ethical issue of misogyny that cannot be condoned. But the accentuation of it is a choice with consequences. I am not approving of the consequences at all....remember I am now talking descriptively...not at all normatively!!

Also, women have always been told they bear a definite responsibility to avoid unwanted attention and even violence through their appearance choices. That they will (and it's true) will often improve career opportunities by modeling male emotional and interactive patterns.
But historically, women have increasingly rejected some of the rigid rules of dress and manner as part of the women's right movement. I think you've commented that community standards regarding appearance for both men and women have eased or adapted somewhat over the years.

Once again...you are talking ethics...and I completely agree that our appearance choices do not ever warrant violence...but I am not sure we can simply claim when we want our appearance to draw attention and when we do not! Again...the softening of standards is that Social Construction of Meaning kicking in....just as a by-the-way, it is interesting to see the criticism of Mariah Carey on the news page today regarding her display of cleavage. So our social construction of the messages of cleavage still carry a lot of negativity...but there was a day when she would have been roundly vilified for this display. Now she can get away with this display with only mild criticism in places...but look at what happened to Brittany when she 'accidentally' flashed a little genital show [and she was not purposefully flashing the show in the way that Mariah is flashing her breasts[!! Interesting.... the fact is that there is nothing inherently ethically wrong with running about naked unless we set up social rules against such action....which we do... it is the human condition ...

Thus, clearly as a community we do sometimes consciously re-examine, question the subjective meaning we attach to some signifiers, yes? [/quote]

YES...ABSOLUTELY...EXACTLY....for good or bad...

So referring back to your quote I copied above - maybe there are times when the rules SHOULD differ or be at least questioned if not abandoned? So again, shouldn't we - in the interest of more equitable society and valuing of diversity - encourage open discussion and questioning of our societal assumptions and therefore standards?

again...YES

Adam's nail polish at rehearsal or in auditions may come with a cost to him, but the producer rejecting him or undermining his career based on that also costs us as a society - in limiting the rewards gained by being an inclusive group and in potentially depriving the community of the joy of Adam's talent.

To take it down a much different, less charged but maybe more common path, I know there are teachers here and I wonder how they handle appearance/projection of self issues - esp with teens who like to push boundaries or maybe hide behind nondescript wear to blend for safety. While I've been known to have a quiet talk with the 'scary' goth girl along the lines mszue laid out about being aware of the response she provoked and costs she might bear for the particular self expression, I also make a point of casually mentioning to other teachers what I see - a bright, kind girl behind those piercings and spikes. For myself, I've gotten the same talk from a close male friend about some young men who come across as aggressive, and with whom I automatically become stricter and less open and encouraging. As a woman and an individual who has had some unfortunate experiences, my trip wire for what I perceive to be 'rough' men is set high - and physical size, voice, how well spoken - are all factors for me.

______

So that was much longer than I meant it to be and I promise to stop but as you can see this is something I wrestle with - esp in questioning my reactions to others. At the end of the day, I worry knowing I sometimes let shallow prejudice lead me to add to someone's burden but just hope that I am forgiven my unintentional trespasses :-/ and remind myself to forgive accordingly.

AGAIN, I completely agree with you. Re the teacher and student...this is not the same issue as making expedient and expeditious decisions re safety with a student. It is a teachers occupation and responsibility and opportunity to get past that external appearance and determine what that student needs and who they are. If you were a teacher that did not do that, you are then showing the same levels if immoral prejudice as the person avoiding a person simply because of the colour of their skin. You have the opportunity to know them better and you did not take it. That is wrong, imho. That is not the same thing as seeing a stranger on the street and having to keep your self safe. And I am referring now only to external appeariential choices made by sentient beings...they chose their garb for a reason and to project a particular image.

In the case of females testing and pushing boundaries... that is how mores are changed. But it is always difficult and sometimes dangerous for those doing the testing and pushing. When women in the 1920's cut their long hair and adopted the Bob hairstyle...along with short skirts...they brought about some pretty incredible changes in our society. Prohibition for one.... Wearing that short hair was a political statement of emancipation....it would have been completely disingenuous to claim the cut was just ''for fun".... and carried not other meaning!! Just as shaving ones head and tattooing the scalp is making a statement of group affiliation and personal identity. It is not analogous to 'getting a trim'.

[/quote]Since I became an Adam fan, this long-time interest of in how people interact with world has become even stronger. And I've been fascinated by the surge of positive response from women - esp women well over 30 to Adam's own unconventional style/appearance choices and his own happy embrace of the peacock

- it seems to have sparked a desire to dip into their own make up/dress up boxes. Like we suddenly became aware of a pleasure or means of expression we had given up long ago as the price of admission to, I don't know, the mainstream? I find myself newly weighing choices at the MAC store and vintage shops - wanting to model Adam's fun, distinctive style but translate rather than mimic so that I project a similar sense of fun, fashion aware individualism without signalling a desire to appear younger or more hip than I am. I'm ok w/my age and level of 'hipness'

(I guess I'm all over the place with this but it is a fascinating subject and I thank you mszue for your insight and others for your contributions!)[/quote]

me too....and I love it!! It is almost like a rebirth...I think it is a bit like that for many of us...
I tried so hard to get my 'quotes' right but they are messed up all over..I hope it is still readable...sigh...too frustrated to spend more time on the details of it all...sorry...

Winter...I am so glad you have chosen adamtopia and this forum.....welcome welcome...

Last Edit: Sept 1, 2012 12:25:00 GMT -5 by mszue

"In the response of the audience, that is where the power of performance lives".

winter
Guest

The Moon Garden Lounge Sept 1, 2012 19:00:48 GMT -5

Quote

Post by winter on Sept 1, 2012 19:00:48 GMT -5

Thank you very much, mszue, for sharing your knowledge! Very helpful and thought provoking :-*

I'll try to offer a poem later - but today I am baking and wishing I could send apple and peach pies to everyone here at the moon garden. Happy September 1st!

lambo
Guest

The Moon Garden Lounge Sept 1, 2012 20:04:36 GMT -5

Quote

Post by lambo on Sept 1, 2012 20:04:36 GMT -5

Sept 1, 2012 4:27:04 GMT -5 @winter said:

What if there is an instance where National Glampoon (hi!) is treated with less respect when he dresses more andro? He can adjust his appearance depending on his goals, but can't I also - as a community member, customer, professional, whatever has the most influence - demand of those interacting with him that they examine their assumptions/prejudices and adjust reactions accordingly?

I've never had any complaints, I don't wear dresses or anything just some lite makeup/jewelry/nail polish. You wouldn't think it'd make much of a difference but I've been mistaken as a girl because of it. A straight guy even flirted with me at a club once

lynne Member Posts: 2,277 Location:	The Moon Garden Lounge Sept 3, 2012 21:54:05 GMT -5 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by lynne on Sept 3, 2012 21:54:05 GMT -5 Very late, Junie, but I loved your Regency Hero post.

nikki
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Posts: 747
Location:

The Moon Garden Lounge Sept 4, 2012 6:55:29 GMT -5

Quote

Post by nikki on Sept 4, 2012 6:55:29 GMT -5

Some excerpts from Walt Whitman's Song of Myself that describe Adam so well to me:

I celebrate myself, and sing myself,
And what I assume you shall assume,
For every atom belonging to me as good belongs to you.

Writing and talk do not prove me,
I carry the plenum of proof and every thing else in my face,
With the hush of my lips I wholly confound the skeptic.

I know I am august,
I do not trouble my spirit to vindicate itself or be understood,
I see that the elementary laws never apologize,
I exist as I am, that is enough,
If no other in the world be aware I sit content,
And if each and all be aware I sit content.

Stop this day and night with me and you shall possess the origin of
all poems,
You shall possess the good of the earth and sun,
You shall no longer take things at second or third hand, nor look through
the eyes of the dead, nor feed on the spectres in books,
You shall not look through my eyes either, nor take things from me,
You shall listen to all sides and filter them from your self.

I am the poet of the Body and I am the poet of the Soul,
The pleasures of heaven are with me and the pains of hell are with me,
The first I graft and increase upon myself, the latter I translate
into new tongue.
I am the poet of the woman the same as the man,
And I say it is as great to be a woman as to be a man,
And I say there is nothing greater than the mother of men.

Behold, I do not give lectures or a little charity,
When I give I give myself.

Failing to fetch me at first keep encouraged,
Missing me one place search another,
I stop somewhere waiting for you.

And visually - William Blake:

Last Edit: Sept 4, 2012 7:25:21 GMT -5 by nikki

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The Moon Garden Lounge Sept 4, 2012 11:36:59 GMT -5

Quote

Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 11:36:59 GMT -5

I have been lurking for a few days but not up to posting. I know many of you are animal lovers and some of you may have seen the time I posted a picture of my bunny in the main thread. On Friday she was killed by a wild animal, with everything that entails.

It is hard to tell people about this loss because even many pet lovers do not understand that a bunny makes a funny, silly, loving companion. If you let them live in the house and be with you all the time, they develop emotional fullness just as other pets do. At least I'm not just crying every minute now, but I sure do wish I could turn back time and save my little friend. :'(

I'm still not up to reading, much less courting, major pushback on the main thread. If Adam doesn't get this Idol job I suspect I'll have to run away for a few days.

Anyway ... I have been reading all the wonderful things posted here the last few days. Thanks, lynne, I'm glad you liked the Regency hero post. Adam is a gentleman/bad boy, that's for sure.

nikki, I was amazed by that Michael Jackson quote about music and its divine essence. I hope someday someone is able to write a full biography of him, the way Peter Guralnick did for Elvis in Last Train to Memphis. I never connected with Jackson the way I have with some other artists, but I sure would like to understand him one day.

I was interested in the exchange on presentation between winter and mszue. Like winter, I wish there was not so much social significance in the way someone presents themselves, especially now that some of the consensus about these "markers" or whatever, and what they mean, has started to break down. At my workplace, we recently got a new commissioner who objected to some of the employees dressing down in his opinion. The management came up with a dress code that was straight out of The Preppy Handbook in 1980 -- without realizing that was satire even back then.

There was such an uproar they had to withdraw the code and (to date) it hasn't resurfaced. Gender and culture were major issues -- men wanted to know why women could wear printed shirts but they could not; define "flamboyant jewelry." An even bigger issue was generational -- almost all the young people have prominent tattoos, which were banned. The whole thing has been both interesting and nerve-wracking, and its continuing specter makes it hard to know what clothes to invest in.

glampoon, I am sometimes mistaken for a boy when I look nothing like a boy, if I am wearing a t-shirt and a baseball cap. I can't wear women's hats, or most men's hats either, because my head is too big. People seem to be very unobservant about these things.

And nikki again -- wow, thank you so much for the Whitman! You know, I only recently rediscovered Whitman. He is so complex. One thing I remember is that back in school, we of course had to read When Lilacs Last In The Dooryard Bloomed, and learn the factoid that Whitman was a major American poet. I remember that a kid asked if it was true that Whitman was gay.

The teacher hemmed and hawed and finally said that no one knew and it wasn't important anyway and get back to work.

Later, I grew up and found out that Whitman was not only gay, but that everyone knew it, he wrote amazing love poems about his male lovers:

Here to put your lips upon mine I permit you,
With the comrade's long-dwelling kiss or the new husband's kiss,
For I am the new husband and I am the comrade

I learned that that his work was controversial and sometimes resulted in his books being banned. Walt's sexuality was basic to his work and self-expression. What a courageous and interesting person he was! It's too bad that the full portrait of this great poet was suppressed -- just think what that would have meant to gay kids in the class, and to the rest of us -- back then there were mostly just negative stereotypes. I hope it's better now -- do they even teach Whitman in high school still?

Hope this post wasn't too much of a hodgepodge. I wanted to share this video with you guys. The Piano Guys have taken a One Direction song to demonstrate the piano as an endless array of instruments. It's both beautiful and a fine reminder of the possibilities that exist if we just look at things a little differently.

Last Edit: Sept 4, 2012 11:44:11 GMT -5 by Deleted

Alison Member Posts: 562 Location:	The Moon Garden Lounge Sept 4, 2012 12:35:06 GMT -5 Quote Select Post Deselect Post Link to Post Member Give Gift Back to Top Post by Alison on Sept 4, 2012 12:35:06 GMT -5 Junie, so sorry about your sweet friend.
	“People are really trying their best. Just like being happy and sad, you will find yourself on both sides of the equation many times over your lifetime, either saying or hearing the wrong thing. Let's all give each other a pass, shall we?” ― David Rakoff, Half Empty

winter
Guest

The Moon Garden Lounge Sept 4, 2012 16:14:12 GMT -5

Quote

Post by winter on Sept 4, 2012 16:14:12 GMT -5

Sept 4, 2012 12:35:06 GMT -5 Alison said:

Junie, so sorry about your sweet friend. :-*

Junie - I also am sorry for your broken heart - such a terrible, terrible thing to happen. It is hard because people often don't understand. Several years ago in a similar situation, I would go to the bathroom at work and just cry into my sweater.

I know the moon garden likes Mary Oliver but can't remember if this poem has been posted before (about her dog Percy and the moon). The last line reminds me of pure, unconditional love.

What do you say Percy? I am thinking
of sitting out on the sand to watch the moon rise. Full tonight.
So we go as the moon rises, so beautiful...
makes me take measure of myself: one iota pondering heaven....

How grateful I am for the moon's perfect beauty and also,
oh! how rich it is to love the world.

Percy, meanwhile, leans against me
and gazes up into my face.
As though I were his perfect moon.