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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2015 11:46:29 GMT -5
I am not pretending any such thing, I am merely saying that it doesn't ALL boil down to Adam's sexuality. Yes, there are people who are prejudice and yes there are struggles but Adam hasn't had THAT hard of a time that I've seen. If someone can point out to me where Adam has actually suffered, verifiable proof, because he's gay then I will gladly concede the point but I see nothing that says Adam was treated unfairly because of his sexuality.
Hateful posts in the comment sections of online articles don't count. Adam had full label support in era 1 and it was extremely successful. He was just as gay then as he was in era 2, the difference of course being that he didn't have label support that time.
Do I know and understand about prejudice against the LGBT community? of course. Do I think it is the only reason why Adam hasn't hit on a much larger scale? No I do not.
So your theory is that anybody can make it big as long as they have label support but if they don't then everyone is a guaranteed failure? Cool. That does explain a lot of things in the pop world. Except that it doesn't.
no, I'm saying that with label support Adam found pretty good success despite the "big gay barrier" that some here seem to think holds him back.
making it big is tricky but proper label support certainly goes a long way towards that happening.
btw, no need to get snippy just because I don't agree that Adam's sexuality is a barrier to the same degree that others' do. Do I think it presents some challenges? of course but I also think that Adam's talent, personality and work ethic more than enable him to overcome whatever challenges his sexuality may present.
I don't view Adam as a victim because of his sexual orientation and neither does he.
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Post by HoppersSkippersMiners on Feb 11, 2015 12:28:58 GMT -5
I don't view Adam as a victim because of his sexual orientation and neither does he <shrug> There's a big difference between someone howling "I'm a victim!!" and the understanding that things have been unnecessarily harder than they needed to be because of how a large section of the population views that person. #1) Fact: There is still widespread discrimination against the LBGT community. The fact that is has improved, has not made it disappear. #2) Fact: Adam, compared to most artists, and particularly those coming from AI, is successful. (monetarily/acclaim) #3) Unsupported, but strongly presumed fact: Adam would have had more widespread success if he was not known to be gay, and/or didn't hide the fact that he was gay (clothes/boyfriends, etc). Just because #2 is true, does not make #3 false or invalidate #1. Now, the effect of #3 can indeed be debated. You appear to think that #3 is rather minimal. Others think that #3 is quite large. My perception is that #3 is significant and has affected his career to date. That said, you are correct that Adam does not act like a victim. But, IMO, a person can be classy and carry on while quietly understanding that things are harder than they needed to be because of a significant percentage of people's discrimination. And he has acknowledged that via his "gay gay gay" tweets and frustration that the gay took over interviews for years over conversations about his music. Life is shades of gray.
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Post by csquared on Feb 11, 2015 12:49:55 GMT -5
I don't view Adam as a victim because of his sexual orientation and neither does he <shrug> There's a big difference between someone howling "I'm a victim!!" and the understanding that things have been unnecessarily harder than they needed to be because of how a large section of the population views that person. #1) Fact: There is still widespread discrimination against the LBGT community. The fact that is has improved, has not made it disappear. #2) Fact: Adam, compared to most artists, and particularly those coming from AI, is successful. (monetarily/acclaim) #3) Unsupported, but strongly presumed fact: Adam would have had more widespread success if he was not known to be gay, and/or didn't hide the fact that he was gay (clothes/boyfriends, etc). Just because #2 is true, does not make #3 false or invalidate #1. Now, the effect of #3 can indeed be debated. You appear to think that #3 is rather minimal. Others think that #3 is quite large. My perception is that #3 is significant and has affected his career to date. That said, you are correct that Adam does not act like a victim. But, IMO, a person can be classy and carry on while quietly understanding that things are harder than they needed to be because of a significant percentage of people's discrimination. And he has acknowledged that via his "gay gay gay" tweets and frustration that the gay took over interviews for years over conversations about his music. Life is shades of gray.
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Post by geezlouise on Feb 11, 2015 13:38:48 GMT -5
My 2 cents.....
As has been pointed out, we won't really be able to judge whether there has been a true shift in peoples perception of Adam by sales alone. Sales are always tied to timing, luck and connection.
For me, the true sign of change will be in the press (and I mean real press... not clicmusic, sociallitelife and others of that ilk) when the first single and TOH are released. If the tag lines are still dominated by "Openly gay singer", "flamboyant" and the like then, sadly I will believe that things have not truly shifted for him. I'm hoping for a change. It isn't just about 'the gay' if these caveats continue. It is IMO all about not being the right kind of gay.
Hate to bring up Sam Smith as an example, but his press has constantly been variations of "velvet voiced Brit soul singer".... not an "openly gay" in sight that I have seen (I added TIHS because someone will surely dig up the article or two that refutes that). Sam's people have groomed his whole coming out towards his everyman appeal. He's just like the rest of us.
Adam is far too fabulous to be just like the rest of us, and no amount of hiding will accomplish that.
A full 6 years into his career and being publicly out should have shed the openly gay monikers.
Let era 3 and a change begin...............
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2015 14:59:50 GMT -5
I don't view Adam as a victim because of his sexual orientation and neither does he <shrug> There's a big difference between someone howling "I'm a victim!!" and the understanding that things have been unnecessarily harder than they needed to be because of how a large section of the population views that person. #1) Fact: There is still widespread discrimination against the LBGT community. The fact that is has improved, has not made it disappear. #2) Fact: Adam, compared to most artists, and particularly those coming from AI, is successful. (monetarily/acclaim) #3) Unsupported, but strongly presumed fact: Adam would have had more widespread success if he was not known to be gay, and/or didn't hide the fact that he was gay (clothes/boyfriends, etc). Just because #2 is true, does not make #3 false or invalidate #1. Now, the effect of #3 can indeed be debated. You appear to think that #3 is rather minimal. Others think that #3 is quite large. My perception is that #3 is significant and has affected his career to date. That said, you are correct that Adam does not act like a victim. But, IMO, a person can be classy and carry on while quietly understanding that things are harder than they needed to be because of a significant percentage of people's discrimination. And he has acknowledged that via his "gay gay gay" tweets and frustration that the gay took over interviews for years over conversations about his music. Life is shades of gray. 1 and 2 undisputed and totally agree.
3 suggests that Gene Simmons was right when he said Adam should have styed in the closet and sorry, I just can't support that idea.
Did the media make a big deal out of Adam being gay? of course they did. That's what happens when someone blazes a trail into new territory.
Would we, as fans, have wanted Adam to have more success if it meant he had to be in the closet to get it? I can only speak for myself and say fuck no! I am glad Adam was brave enough to speak his truth even if that made a few doors close and cost him a few sales in the long run.
I am not trying to piss anyone off, I'm just kind of over, after 6 years, hearing people blame Adam's sexuality for perceived failures or "lack of success" in his career when he's been amazingly successful and continues to get opportunities and respect that the majority of artists would kill for.
eta: maybe my perspective comes from a different place than some...I work and live within a community that is very welcoming to LGBT people so I don't view them as any different than anyone else. Adam being gay means nothing more to me than Adam having blue eyes. So what?
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Post by HoppersSkippersMiners on Feb 11, 2015 16:31:07 GMT -5
<smiles wryly>
And I work and live where sexuality SHOULDN'T matter anymore than eye color...but man, it does. It does. At times it is really disheartening. The jokes decreased when it became uncool (and you could be officially reprimanded for them). But the issues haven't gone away. It's just not as loud.
So, yeah, sometimes the viewpoints can be dramatically different.
Gene Simmons is an ass. And I *don't* think Adam could have or should have stayed in the closet. AT ALL. But give Simmons his due as a savvy businessman (which he is despite his ass-dom). In the SHORT TERM, Adam may have indeed been able to garner more immediate financial awards with a "don't ask, don't tell" attitude.
IMO, that direction would have destroyed Adam as he's too much an open book to be forced keep so much of his life shut. Wrong for Adam personally, musically...everything. And plus, IMO, much of his current fanbase is so loyal because not only is he an awesome singer but because we respect his bravery and his fortitude when obstacles were thrown in his way...and/or even because we admire that he's always been happy and proud to be himself (and wanted *us* to be our most authentic selves as well).
Have attitudes changed enough at this point that his gayness is as unimportant as his eye color? (And I might add that those blue eyes are gorgeous so this isn't a zero-point issue) I HOPE that it will matter less this time around. But he also DOES have full backing of a label, an admired producer, and an awesome management team. So I'm crossing my fingers and toes that really good music will prevail and blow whatever resistance there is to achieve the radio success he so craves.
Because, yep, he's got a quite a bit of dinero in the bank and pictures in magazines. Ergo, he's got a level of success better than most singers who try out for the biz. However, "what he wants, what he really, really wants" is a Top 10 hit and the accolades that go along with it. And for that, he needs enough people to accept him and embrace the music.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2015 17:27:01 GMT -5
Because, yep, he's got a quite a bit of dinero in the bank and pictures in magazines. Ergo, he's got a level of success better than most singers who try out for the biz. However, "what he wants, what he really, really wants" is a Top 10 hit and the accolades that go along with it. And for that, he needs enough people to accept him and embrace the music.
Didn't people accept him and embrace the music during era 1? Are we basing this whole conversation on what happened with era 2? I ask because Adam had a top 10 hit and the accolades (grammy nomination) and sales (over 2 million singles) to go along with it during the FYE era. I think that's my confusion, where is all the discussion of barriers and hurdles coming from at this point in Adam's career? Is it because he changed labels and hasn't had new music in almost three years? Does it feel like he's starting from scratch for some people? just trying to figure out why people focus so much on one aspect of who Adam is in an effort to explain something that really isn't a reality (that Adam hasn't found enormous success in his career and continues to enjoy boundless opportunities).
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Post by HoppersSkippersMiners on Feb 11, 2015 17:49:02 GMT -5
I think that's my confusion, where is all the discussion of barriers and hurdles coming from at this point in Adam's career? Is it because he changed labels and hasn't had new music in almost three years? Does it feel like he's starting from scratch for some people? In a lot of ways, yes. Adam was riding high on the American Idol audience for Era #1. That audience is gone now. Even if the AI buying population wasn't at a fraction of it's heyday, it generally turns to the next crop of Idols a year later. Plus, AI hasn't broken an Idol to radio since Adam/Kris and its force is broken. For the majority of the current music audience, Adam is starting from a near-new position. His name is still known, but only the hard-core fans have heard his music since the WWFM era. Many, but not all, have heard of the Queen collaboration. But in a world of "what have you done for me lately?"....he doesn't have a huge amount of "lately" clout with the general public. (He DOES with music insiders and experts, but not - IMO - with the general public). Ergo, professionally, he has an uphill climb for broad acceptance because there wasn't much traction from Era #2 and he can't rely all that much on the casual fans from Era #1 (any potential effect of Queen fans for his solo work is unknown). So, consequently, all the old hurdles do indeed come back into play.
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Post by csquared on Feb 11, 2015 17:53:53 GMT -5
Because, yep, he's got a quite a bit of dinero in the bank and pictures in magazines. Ergo, he's got a level of success better than most singers who try out for the biz. However, "what he wants, what he really, really wants" is a Top 10 hit and the accolades that go along with it. And for that, he needs enough people to accept him and embrace the music.
Didn't people accept him and embrace the music during era 1? Are we basing this whole conversation on what happened with era 2? I ask because Adam had a top 10 hit and the accolades (grammy nomination) and sales (over 2 million singles) to go along with it during the FYE era. I think that's my confusion, where is all the discussion of barriers and hurdles coming from at this point in Adam's career? Is it because he changed labels and hasn't had new music in almost three years? Does it feel like he's starting from scratch for some people? just trying to figure out why people focus so much on one aspect of who Adam is in an effort to explain something that really isn't a reality (that Adam hasn't found enormous success in his career and continues to enjoy boundless opportunities). What happened in era 2 IS important to the conversation, IMO. There were still plenty of comments then by radio DJs about makeup etc. that IMO didn't do anything to help him. And no, I'm not saying Adam should have changed anything he was doing or how he presented himself. Yes, he had a top 10 hit in era 1, and WE know that he's done a ton of stuff since 2010, but, at least here in the PNW, there are a shitload of people who won't know any of that because his music has barely been a presence on the radio here. And when you ask where the discussion about barriers and hurdles is coming from at this point in his career, I thought this discussion was more about what happened earlier in his career, i.e. through era 2, and the hope that those barriers will be lower this time. I don't think anyone here is saying Adam should have changed anything in his presentation of himself, just that we hope public opinions have evolved so that just maybe this time there won't be idiotic comments about eyeliner or heavy makeup or openly gay. As far as RADIO, yes, it does feel to me like he's starting from scratch (again, in part of the country where he didn't get anwhole lot of exposure). I agree that he has a successful career and he has great opportunities. I don't think widespread radio success has been one of them, and I do think that's something he (and probably WB) wants. And is still the best way for his music to become ubiquitous. But the reality is that Adam's career has had hurdles that a straight artist would not have faced.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2015 17:57:48 GMT -5
okay fair enough but if he puts out music that the general public likes, as he did in era 1, shouldn't we expect he'll find the same result if he has the label support he needs, regardless of what hurdles/barriers might be there? It's his label and managements job to make sure whatever barriers there are are cleared IMO. RCA/19M did it in era 1 so I don't see why it won't happen in this era with WBR/DMG fully in his corner (as they seem to be).
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